Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

[scc]

Originally Posted by Culture20

That is an assumption based on “average available energy for enchanters”. Unless DF has different rules than standard GURPS Magic.

No it doesn't, it's enchanters do however use something to boost their skills.

Originally Posted by Anthony

GURPS 3rd edition had a sidebar on costs for enchantment using powerstones. They were icky math. Thus, in GURPS 4th edition magic they did away with the sidebar and declared that no-one would do enchantment with powerstones, and DF followed that model.-Snip-.

There are also other ways to get energy, my personal favorite is Raise Cone Of Power because it involves dancing girls (I figure that one has a cost of $15 for 2 energy)

Originally Posted by maximara

And that is assuming that the enchanting mage is either crazy enough to enchant in a very high mana area (which makes 16 a critical failure and rolls of 17-18 totally disastrous per Magic 6) or has the Stable Casting (+40%) enhancement to Magery.

Both you and the books seem to be assuming that Mages can supply no more then 10 energy, which I find rather odd. I also have to wonder if the critical rules you mention here actually apply to Enchanting.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It is wrong because mages are allowed to own more than one powerstone.

Just take the powerstone out of the VH Mana area to enchant, put back in to recharge.

This is assuming there is a very mana area nearby (or that they exist at all in the setting)

Originally Posted by scc

No it doesn't, it's enchanters do however use something to boost their skills.

Enchanter’s Scabbard, and Enchanter’s Staff both insanely expensive in terms of money ($3,000,000 and $1,000,000 respectively). Furthermore it is expressly stated that there are only two Enchanter’s Scabbard and the method by which they were made has been lost. Enchanter’s Staff has the issue of its method creation being a closely guarded secrets with only rumors.

Originally Posted by scc

Both you and the books seem to be assuming that Mages can supply no more then 10 energy, which I find rather odd. I also have to wonder if the critical rules you mention here actually apply to Enchanting.

Since the break point is 100 energy and not 60 this is not true. To get there with only 6 enchanters requires an average of FP 16.7 which we will call 17 to make the math easier.

With regards to the critical failure table in Enchangment Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. More over when things differ significantly from the standard rules (such as 16 being success except when regarding enchantment where it is always a failure) the game tells you.

For example, GURPS Religion goes out of its way to point out only an 18 is a critical failure for holy enchantment and all it does is destroy the item or force the cleric to abort the attempt. (R106-107)

If you want powerful items fast and it exists in the setting, Syntactic Magic is the way to go.

[scc]

Originally Posted by maximara

Enchanter’s Scabbard, and Enchanter’s Staff both insanely expensive in terms of money ($3,000,000 and $1,000,000 respectively). Furthermore it is expressly stated that there are only two Enchanter’s Scabbard and the method by which they were made has been lost. Enchanter’s Staff has the issue of its method creation being a closely guarded secrets with only rumors.

Since the break point is 100 energy and not 60 this is not true. To get there with only 6 enchanters requires an average of FP 16.7 which we will call 17 to make the math easier.

With regards to the critical failure table in Enchangment Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. More over when things differ significantly from the standard rules (such as 16 being success except when regarding enchantment where it is always a failure) the game tells you.

For example, GURPS Religion goes out of its way to point out only an 18 is a critical failure for holy enchantment and all it does is destroy the item or force the cleric to abort the attempt. (R106-107)

If you want powerful items fast and it exists in the setting, Syntactic Magic is the way to go.

Kromm has explicitly stated in the forums that enchanters in DF use items that grant them a +4 to skill and circles are of 10 Mages. And it's possible to get very powerful items through the standard system quickly, or at least ones with high energy requirements.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by scc

Kromm has explicitly stated in the forums that enchanters in DF use items that grant them a +4 to skill and circles are of 10 Mages. And it's possible to get very powerful items through the standard system quickly, or at least ones with high energy requirements.

Ok a 21 (21-10+4) skill is doable but if we go with the 17 EP per mage as the practical maximum figured out before you are still talking about only 170 energy points for a one hour enchantment

Everything points to Q&A requiring the enchantment be done at the end of the hour. If Kromm or the books explicitly say otherwise cite them so we we can see if anything has come down the pipe that may have changed them.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by scc

Kromm has explicitly stated in the forums that enchanters in DF use items that grant them a +4 to skill and circles are of 10 Mages. And it's possible to get very powerful items through the standard system quickly, or at least ones with high energy requirements.

Do you have a quote ?

Because he also said :

Originally Posted by http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=1734482&postcount=15

In books labeled "Dungeon Fantasy," Enchantment spells are off-limits because they aren't how magic items are created in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy.
That genre treatment assumes that most magic items worth owning are forgotten artifacts made by lost races, ancient relics from an age when magic worked differently, gifts from gods, oddities from other dimensions, etc. The low-end ones available in shops are mass-produced by non-adventuring guilds using methods that don't closely resemble Enchantment spells.

And, for enchanting outside of DF,

The assumption "all magic items are made by enchanters using the standard rules, with no cheats or workarounds" is dodgy. Even in settings where this is mostly true, the assumption that archmages will be bound by the same rules is at best boring and at worst broken.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

(quoting material)


In books labeled "Dungeon Fantasy," Enchantment spells are off-limits because they aren't how magic items are created in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy.
That genre treatment assumes that most magic items worth owning are forgotten artifacts made by lost races, ancient relics from an age when magic worked differently, gifts from gods, oddities from other dimensions, etc. The low-end ones available in shops are mass-produced by non-adventuring guilds using methods that don't closely resemble Enchantment spells. - http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=15

The assumption "all magic items are made by enchanters using the standard rules, with no cheats or workarounds" is dodgy. Even in settings where this is mostly true, the assumption that archmages will be bound by the same rules is at best boring and at worst broken.

To give an example from D&D ("Charging isn't Cheap" Dragon #100, Sept 1985):

Rod of absorption (12th-level cleric, 16th level magic-user): Take a green shoot from an apple at harvest time. Apple is a lucky wood, able to store and release magic easily. Bury it in a cedar crate with a topaz the best stone for absorbing magic and the strongest magic item the maker of the rod had used in the last year. Clerics must also include their holy symbol. A limited wish must be cast now, to create a magical connection between the items in the crate. After one month, the topaz turns to dust and the magic item is ruined, but the rod is ready to be enchanted. If the rod takes the enchantment (see above for the process), then a second spell included in the instructions is read. The vellum on which the second spell was contained will burst into flames. The rod is run through the flames, and the command word appears on the rod. It is now ready for use.

That is the kind of enchantment we are likely looking at in DF. But there's more. To learn a procedure like the above you have research and spend gold like crazy. (2,000 gp for additional 10% over your base 10% not to exceed 50%) Add it is slow research: "The minimum time spent on such research equals in weeks the minimum level a character must be in order to successfully make the item. A wand of magic missiles has a preparatory time of twelve weeks, a staff of the magi has a time of eighteen weeks, and so forth."

Basically a wild mish mash of Natural Magic, Alchemy, Hidden Lore, and a few other things with a seasoning of Ritual Magic. You ain't speeding something like the above up.

Heck, in my sheet of using standard GURPS Magic in D&D I effectively invoked Syntactic Enchantment as well as Enchantment through Age and Enchantment through Deeds for the more powerful stuff.

Edit: That said Df adventure heavily implies that some Enchantment does work along the lines of GURPS Magic system:

"Note to those with GURPS Magic: Costs assume that enchanted items up to 100 energy points are Quick and Dirty
($1/point), that more powerful artifacts are second-hand Slow and Sure items ($20/point), and that alchemical amulets are rare ($66/day, plus ingredients)."

"Effects: What the enchantment does. See pp. B480-483 and Magic for details." That is a bare bones version of the GURPS Magic enchantment system.

So contrary to what Kromm says DF (at least Adventures) specifically references the Basic Set version of the GURPS Magic system as the way magic items are created.

[maximara]

I've gotten the majority of the Enchantment Cost table done (just have to add the notes and doubled check the values)

[Anthony]

In general I think enchanting should either be a use of character points (in which case it should be priced as a device that does the same thing) or be a flavor of crafting (in which case items should have a $ cost, not an energy cost).

[Kax]

Originally Posted by maximara

Also incorrect.

"The caster is at -1 to skill for each assistant; therefore, the number of assistants allowed is the number that would reduce the caster’s effective skill to 15. With more assistants, the enchantment won’t work. If anyone but the caster and his assistants is within 10 yards, the spell is at a further -1."

To be far enough away not to effect the skill level every one of those non-mages need to have 25 (!) power items to have effective skill of 15 (10 hexes means -10 to effective skill)

11yd down the hall==zero problem.

[Kax]

Originally Posted by maximara

Oops. I have no idea what I was thinking there.

But it doesn't change another aspect pointed out in DF itself - past 100 energy enchanters go the S&S route.

This would seem to imply that there is something about going over 100 energy that make it impractical for Q&D enchanting (assuming one isn't allowing Syntactic Magic which makes powerful magic items insanely quick and much cheaper)

DF and most setting's prices assume the average enchanter groups isn't 6 plus a bunch of boosting kit, but 3-4 and a couple of small powerstones and maybe a familiar each.

Which is how big enchanter groups make the big money; Q&D at S&S prices==riches.