Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-17-2021, 12:36 PM   #21
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I would say landed knight is the lowest rank of noble. And yes, "landed knight" is a hereditary title...in that if you inherit the land you inherit the knighthood. Baronets were also lower, but in Megalos are just referred to as "lesser barons">
Knighthood in the Medieval European sense is not inheritable. The son of a knight is not knighted automatically. It's an 'earned' title, though at some times earning it wasn't very hard. In others people avoided being knighted because the obligations cost too much.

Not being knighted didn't always stop you inheriting the land that was once a knight's fee, though, depending how strong the overlord's family had been vs how good your family was at making the inheritance customary.

The thing is, there was never a 'feudal system'. That's something people try to impose on the past to make sense of it. Every case was it's own special case.

In England 'baron' originally simply meant someone who held their lands directly from the king, with no intermediate noble. Thus barons often had other titles as well. Over time the meaning changed, and it became the lowest rank of 'true' noble (though baronets, etc. muddied things somewhat).
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2021, 12:44 PM   #22
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No. The highest nobles have to be one step down from the prince. That's the appeal to being elected Prince, that it gives you a status boost. Thing is, Cardiel, like Caithness doesn't really have a pyramidal social structure. That's why it has a ruling council and an elected monarchy. What it really is, is a confederation of 7 very minor monarchs.
Note that all of them have towns or cities as their seats, and the wealth of those cities is generally mention in the course material. That strongly implies that cities are the primary source of wealth and power for most great lords in Cardiel (unlike Caithness, for contrast). This in turn makes it likely that the 'traditional' rural feudal structures that might've once held (though Megalos' feudal structure has always been fairly commercial) are probably not very strong. Real power comes from the cities and their trade and production, and that means that the power of a noble has a lot more to do with which urban families they are related to than what their title is and even what lands they hold. This won't be true across the whole country - the poorer and more rural south-east is probably more traditional, though they might well still not put much stock in fancy titles, given the elven influence there.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2021, 03:34 PM   #23
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No. The highest nobles have to be one step down from the prince. That's the appeal to being elected Prince, that it gives you a status boost. Thing is, Cardiel, like Caithness doesn't really have a pyramidal social structure. That's why it has a ruling council and an elected monarchy. What it really is, is a confederation of 7 very minor monarchs.
I am not so sure, it seems to me that you can also model a head of state or a chief executive as having Administrative Rank, Legal Immunity, Social Regard, or other advantages. I would agree that in an aristocracy, the head of state should generally have the highest status, but I would want to see what GURPS Banestorm says about Status in the setting and exactly what authority the Prince of Cardiel has.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

Last edited by Polydamas; 05-17-2021 at 03:53 PM.
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2021, 06:33 PM   #24
Žorkell
Icelandic - Approach With Caution
 
Žorkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Reykjavķk, Iceland
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I would say landed knight is the lowest rank of noble. And yes, "landed knight" is a hereditary title...in that if you inherit the land you inherit the knighthood. Baronets were also lower, but in Megalos are just referred to as "lesser barons">
Assuming the British system.
Baronet is the term for a landed knight. Then as I understand it in the same system knight aren't nobles, but they're not commoners either.
__________________
Žorkell Sigvaldason

Viking kittens | My photos | More of my photos
Žorkell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 10:54 AM   #25
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No. The highest nobles have to be one step down from the prince. That's the appeal to being elected Prince, that it gives you a status boost. Thing is, Cardiel, like Caithness doesn't really have a pyramidal social structure. That's why it has a ruling council and an elected monarchy. What it really is, is a confederation of 7 very minor monarchs.
GURPS Banestorm p. 87 and 139 say that princes and dukes including the Prince of Cardiel are status 6. In contrast, the King of Caithness is Status 7 like an imperial consort (p. 114). Caithness is a smaller poorer kingdom than Cardiel, but that is like the Prime Minister of Australia and the Prime Minister of Liechenstein being formally equal at a diplomatic event. Titles can substitute for differences in wealth and power.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 11:12 AM   #26
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
GURPS Banestorm p. 87 and 139 say that princes and dukes including the Prince of Cardiel are status 6. In contrast, the King of Caithness is Status 7 like an imperial consort (p. 114). Caithness is a smaller poorer kingdom than Cardiel, but that is like the Prime Minister of Australia and the Prime Minister of Liechenstein being formally equal at a diplomatic event. Titles can substitute for differences in wealth and power.
To be specific Cardiel is more populous. But the Prince has no dynasty, and doesn't have the same authority over his realm. Even though the lords of Caithness have a lot of local autonomy, they have no council of lords or assembly of commoners.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2021, 11:48 AM   #27
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
To be specific Cardiel is more populous. But the Prince has no dynasty, and doesn't have the same authority over his realm. Even though the lords of Caithness have a lot of local autonomy, they have no council of lords or assembly of commoners.
Cardiel is more populous, more urban, and has the important natural resource of mana. I imagine the lords of Cardiel think of Caithness like the Italians thought of Poland or Norway: "yeah, we can sell some things there but its so remote and old-fashioned."
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2021, 04:29 AM   #28
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Baughn View Post
In a kingdom of several million people, I'd expect there to be something like (order of magnitude):
  • Ten thousand barons
  • One thousand viscounts
  • One hundred counts or earls
  • Ten dukes
Mediaeval England had about sixty barons (including earls), and until very late in the mediaeval period there were only earls or barons. There were no dukes in England until 1337, nor marquesses until 1385, nor viscounts until 1440.

At the Model Parliament in 1295 (at which the right of lords to be summoned to Parliament was established) there were 49 barons (including the earls), I think 26 bishops, and 292 commons (two knights from each shire, two burgesses from each borough).

In a mediaeval kingdom of several million population, in an area that favours broad-field agriculture, there are probably several thousand villages. Each village corresponding inexactly to a manor and to a parish. The average population of a village is probably more than 1,200 but fewer than 2,000, including women, children, servants, and landless labourers.

Depending on how the country is run, about a quarter of the manors might be royal demesnes (run by bailiffs answering to the Steward). Up to a third of the manors might belong to institutions and officials of the Church — and that’s not counting the priest’s glebe in each parish. (Church holdings tended to increase monotonically because they never escheated and were never forfeited, but whenever they reached a third of a kingdom that was destabilising, and half of them would be confiscated and distributed to royal accomplices who could perform military and court service for them.)

That leaves perhaps a couple of thousand manors in the possession of lay landlords, who were mostly knights (and later, when knighthood became an expensive nuisance, squires). A knight who owned five manors was on the margin of being considered a lord. If he played his political cards right he might get a licence to crenellate and a summons to parliament; but he was not so important that he had to get them even if the king disliked him. For that you needed ten or more. I’d say about five hundred landed knights averaging two manors each and fifty lords averaging twenty manors each.
__________________

© copyright Brett Evill
Discussion of FLAT BLACK

Last edited by Agemegos; 05-23-2021 at 08:00 PM.
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2021, 04:34 AM   #29
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
A village probably has a knight, rather than a baron.
Once upon a time (c. 1265) Sir John de Daiville (or De Ewill, or D’Eyvile) was a wealthy knight. He owned five villages in Nottinghamshire and Yorkshire, but being recognised as a baron slipped through his fingers.

A village probably has a bailiff to run it for the owner, who might visit once per year, if ever. The owner might be an abbey, nunnery, or cathedral chapter. Or a bishop.
__________________

© copyright Brett Evill
Discussion of FLAT BLACK

Last edited by Agemegos; 05-22-2021 at 05:05 AM. Reason: reorganised
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2021, 04:38 AM   #30
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: [Banestorm] Why is the Cardien Council of Lords full of barons and vicounts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
England has about 400 barons.
Now it does. But that’s after five hundred years of post-mediaeval monarchs handing out hereditary titles as a reward for political favours and service.
__________________

© copyright Brett Evill
Discussion of FLAT BLACK
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
banestorm

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.