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Old 07-19-2021, 03:12 PM   #41
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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If you pare down your resources it means you can make your biker gangs a bit more hungry too. Bikers armed with SAMs doesn't fit with my image of CW.
[nod] Exactly. Bikers would tend to be "keep it simple" types, as one never knows when one might be getting reloads for one's higher-tech weapons. I picture biker "AA" as looking more like the _Rat Patrol Special_ from _Dueltrack_ -- one of the support pickups with a Ring Mount in the bed with a brace of MGs attached. Far more useful than one-shot SAMs, to boot.

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The closer you stay to the low end of the tech tree, the more victory relies on tactics rather then tooling.
Also true -- and I used it to great effect back-when. The 1,500-lb. CB was useful for obliterating large groups of encamped bikers; for those occasions where the bikers were on the road, Other Tactics were employed. The important feature here is: If something is Expensive, make sure it can be used *many* times, to amortize the cost. :)

(In my writeup for "The Death Of EDSEL", one of the great changes made by EDSEL's leadership is: Swap the Bombs for U-facing HRs -- the rockets don't scatter, and won't take out three lanes of traffic in the process of stopping two duellists; thus obviating one of the major complaints against EDSEL interfering in road duels.)
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Old 07-24-2021, 08:22 PM   #42
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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Where does your campaign take place? Now I'm thinking Ice Road Truckers with guns... Two words - napalm mines
Western Canada since it doesn't have players it is developing freeform most of the current work has been Road based so far. While a Mountie game is possible that have a different feel from the more likely "A-team" with Cars or Convoy style play that seem most likely if arena is skipped, there also a possibility of hybrid campaign which includes elements of two or more.

Just to remark about the Bane that is EDSEL in Canada they are more popular out east in the west, much like in the US they barely exist.
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Old 07-27-2021, 02:09 PM   #43
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

The SAM is 1950s tech, very much within the definition of low-tech (at least in CW terms). I was just stating that if a biker gang was being attacked by a bully with a 1500lb cluster bomb that they would react - it's rock paper scissors. There are very cheap ways to bring down aircraft. If you don't like pedestrians try this one :)

Unfortunately, a rat patrol special with a ring mount and some MGs isn't going to do a darn thing against most aircraft - that also requires a pickup truck BTW and is much more expensive

About 3 of these could bring down just about any chopper or microplane from the D hazards alone

Budget AA -- Subcompact, Heavy chassis, Heavy suspension, Small power plant w/SC, 4 Off-Road Heavy-Duty tires, Driver w/BA, Surface-to-Air Missile in Rocket EWP, 2 Linked Surface-to-Air Missiles Top, Brushcutter, Plastic Armor: F6, L5, R5, B5, T10, Acceleration 5, Top Speed 82.5, HC 4, 2530 lbs., $4621

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[nod] Exactly. Bikers would tend to be "keep it simple" types, as one never knows when one might be getting reloads for one's higher-tech weapons. I picture biker "AA" as looking more like the _Rat Patrol Special_ from _Dueltrack_ -- one of the support pickups with a Ring Mount in the bed with a brace of MGs attached. Far more useful than one-shot SAMs, to boot.
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Old 07-27-2021, 02:39 PM   #44
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About 3 of these could bring down just about any chopper or microplane from the D hazards alone
Try "zero of these" -- that 1,500-lb. CB is being delivered from about a mile away; the bomber never comes close enough for the SAMs to hit.

(A particularly Dirty Trick I used: A couple footsloggers with Stealth skill set up a LTS on a tripod, or better yet in a tree, just outside the biker's perimeter, then slip away; a couple minutes later, the acft. with the laser-guided 1,500-lb. CB shows up. Expensive, but effective; and the bikers never know what hit them, and are in no fit state to pas the story along.... >:) )
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Old 07-30-2021, 03:34 PM   #45
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

A 1,500 lb bomb isn't CW.
A plane a mile up isn't CW.
You are playing Aeroduel.

Aeroduel adds a load of high capability airborne equipment (and some nonsense) to a game that systematically reduced capability in the ground domain in the name of balance and playability.

Realistically a rifle should be hitting stationary man sized targets at 100 yards nine times in ten when used by someone competent (and competent is Handgunner 0). In CW 100 yards is 20" so you are -5 for range and even with the benefit of being stationary and braced (+2), the -3 for the target means you need 13 to hit so it's not actually possible.

A SKILLED rifleman should be hitting out to 300 yards regularly. In CW the geometric progression of range penalty means you are at -45 for range and there is no equipment or circumstance that will ever mean you can hit even once in a while.

A LAW should turn a plastic armoured car inside out. It should also be capable of hitting regularly at 50+ yards.

Aeroduel forgets these limitations and instead chooses to use "realistic" combat performance allowing laser guided bombs to fall with pinpoint precision.

A free fall unguided bomb can absolutely hit the ground 100% of the time. If you drop from 1 mile up though you don't get to chose which bit of ground. If you insist on playing with Aeroduel, I will insist on you also being required to use CW Tanks and the spotting rules therein. Just because you as a player can see my token on the board it doesn't mean your bomb aimer can see me from a mile up. I'll also be using the long barrelled weapon rules etc. that cut some of those range penalties down to size.

If you include range penalties at a mile up (352") your dive bombing range will be in excess of that at at -1 per 4" you are at -88 to hit. If you need more than and adjusted 12 you CANNOT hit your target (CWC 2.5 p39). Scatter only applies to shots that could hit.

You get to ignore range penalties for bombing if bombing horizontally (this was never part of CW, helicopter bombs always counted the distance dropped towards the range penalty). A bomb dropped from 1 mile up takes 13 seconds to hit the ground and therefore has to travel a significant distance horizontally in that time (which depends on the speed of your aircraft).

Weapons that hit instantaneously can reasonably specify "that pedestrian" as the attack is resolved instantly. You'll need to know the range from your aircraft to the target on the phase you drop (most games we played didn't allow pre-measuring of range). Your target is the point that many inches away from your aircraft's current position. You need to be able to trace line of sight at that point (and in every phase until it hits if the bomb is laser-guided). A building will block LOS.

Killing dispersed bikers in urban ruins is not straight forward as your cluster bomb does X dice damage to each target and a building is a single target. 20d might breach a 10DP building, but it is unlikely to level it. Breaches do not harm occupants. You will need to be able to identify which buildings you want to target 13 turns beforehand.

None of my bikers sits around in a big field like it is Woodstock. That generation of bikers died out in the early 2030's.

When we attack your plane, it will be while it is sitting on the runway. We can drop cluster bombs too (from our crappy autogyro which costs a 100th of yours or balloons). We'll send a new boy every couple of weeks or so to your airfield and see what mischief he can make with some Molotov's and a scoped silenced rifle. If he manages to reduce your duty cycle we'll reward him. If you catch him, we have plenty more. It sounds like we'll easily be able to find the bragging pilots when they roll into town and we can deal with them more... organically.

Last edited by swordtart; 07-31-2021 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 07-30-2021, 03:36 PM   #46
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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Try "zero of these" -- that 1,500-lb. CB is being delivered from about a mile away; the bomber never comes close enough for the SAMs to hit.

(A particularly Dirty Trick I used: A couple footsloggers with Stealth skill set up a LTS on a tripod, or better yet in a tree, just outside the biker's perimeter, then slip away; a couple minutes later, the acft. with the laser-guided 1,500-lb. CB shows up. Expensive, but effective; and the bikers never know what hit them, and are in no fit state to pas the story along.... >:) )
Errr... no CW rules allows laser designation by anything other than the weapon carrier (CW laser guidance is beam riding). The laser guidance must be linked to the guided weapon. So no you can't do that.

Edit:
Actually Aeroduel seems to go it's own sweet way with laser guidance and it just makes bombs to hit 6, they aren't even beam riders, just some magic bombsight +3. I think that is another good example of why Aeroduel is highly suspect. Still no option to have them designated from the ground.

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Old 07-30-2021, 04:55 PM   #47
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

Sword there are rules lawyers and rules gurus - you are the latter :)

Absolutely correct - under the current CW rules you could not bomb a target from a mile up.

You'd have to drop down to a reasonable 20" which is where you'll face SAM swarms.

Also, that's a 5 space bomb - too big for a bomb rack - so only larger choppers or microplanes are going to be able to carry this monster, and they have low HC - hence my comment on the D hazard of a SAM being lethal.

Also, a SAM will wreak havoc on a microplane on a wing hit - so you're better off in a chopper (UACFH p 176 "Wings")

Agree with Sword - you can't use two different sets of rules. If you could drop a bomb from a mile, I'd insist SAMs not suffer range penalties at all. They are fire and forget weapons like a RGM

Agree Aeroduel doesn't really mix with CW.

Jets vs cycles is a GI Joe cartoon :)

Edit: I wholeheartedly endorse attacking convoys with cluster bombs. In our campaign I created a random encounter with a joker calling himself Count Chocula who would drop a regular 150lb cluster bomb from his small microplane. It was just for laughs but the players absolutely hated him - it was one of those times where a random encounter become a major plot twist


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If you include range penalties at a mile up (352") your dive bombing range will be in excess of that at at -1 per 4" you are at -88 to hit. If you need more than and adjusted 12 you CANNOT hit your target (CWC 2.5 p39). Scatter only applies to shots that could hit.

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Old 07-31-2021, 09:07 AM   #48
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It further occurs to me that as bombs are only powered by gravity, there is no effective way to "aim" them when horizontal bombing. All you can do is chose a drop time. You can't aim off to the left as the bomb can only move in the direction the plane was travelling at the point it was released and at the speed of release (and decelerating over time). You can only aim in a straight line ahead of the current a/c position. Note that a 1000lb bomb weighs 1000lb. There is no additional weight in there for any traverse or propelling mechanism (unlike a rocket). Cluster bombs also need some dispersal mechanism and probably proportionally more explosive which adds 50% but still have no traverse mechanism. Basically bombs fall off rather than being launched (Aeroduel seems to use the words launched, dropped and "fired" interchangeably).

This also explains why bombs can be dropped on automatic. Just like DW they simply appear under* the a/c like any other Under mounted DW. Any aimed weapon on automatic fires out in a straight line from the side it is mounted on (just like a DW does). It also explains why range isn't relevant, if you aren't "aiming", you can't deviate. DWs never miss. I'd argue that under these circumstances you wouldn't need at least a 12 either. Finally it explains why bombs which must be under mounted can be carried in cargo spaces (perhaps we should allow this for ground vehicle DWs)

Laser guidance provides some limited steering capability and that may be why it provides a bonus to hit rather than it hitting where an aimed laser beam is. If the guiding laser it is switched off or redirected after the bomb is dropped the bomb simply looses the +3 to hit rather than automatically missing (as would a laser guided rocket). It is going where it is going.

If you take this interpretation it explains why any consideration of the time to fall and forward component of movement is even included. You as a player are required to work out your optimum drop point based on your a/c position, height and speed. At the point you drop you lose control of the bomb and it just follows the mathematically determined path to where it ends up.

Scatter is there to take into account that your bombardier is not as omnipotent as you and the bombs flight can be affected by windspeed (which can be different at different altitudes), turbulence, inability to see the target properly and plain misjudgement etc. As corollary all gunfire follows the direct line path to the target, the to hit roll determines how good the gunner was in getting that lined up on the intended target.

If (and only if) you follow this interpretation can you bomb from a mile up. As pointed out in an earlier post you can't miss the ground. If you can see your target, calculate instantaneously when you need to release 13 seconds before your A/C is even over the target and manoeuvre your a/c into the correct position so that the bombs straight out path and fall rate coincide with your chosen target point then you deserve a shot at it.

Even if you manage to correctly calculate the drop point, your bombardier may still stuff it up. The maximum distance you can scatter is 60" off target. This equates to 300 yards. This doesn't seem implausible. It would move even a cluster bombs area of effect far outside the target area.

These interpretations would make bombing work in CW and none of it is wholly incompatible with any of the words in Aeroduel (and no more so than the words in Aeroduel are incompatible with other words in Aeroduel).

*Aeroduel mentions bombs are "fired" into the front arc but as they would be subject to the 45 degree maximum arc this can't be literally true. I think this is to recognise that bombs will land ahead of their "launch point", even though their launch is simply inherited speed from the a/c.

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Old 07-31-2021, 02:05 PM   #49
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

UACFH p. 45: A single laser can guide any number of LGLed weapons, so long as they all come from the same vehicle, and the same arc of fire. *NOTHING* is said about the laser being mounted on the same vehicle (I'm at the wrong computer at the moment to look it up, but I do recall an _ADQ&A_ specifically saying this was allowed).

I use "one mile up" as it's the example used in _Aeroduel_ for "how to calculate horizontal bombing (_AD_ p. 34).

Oh, By The Way: "Horizontal bombing to-hit rolls are not affected by range, target size, or movement modifiers. The bomber's gunner [sic] skill and target [sic] computer do affect the to-hit roll." [ibid.] So much for "-88 to-hit"....

As to the actual target point: As noted, horizontal bombing isn't brilliant against *MOVING* targets -- but the bomber isn't attacking a moving target; it's attacking a point on the ground, which isn't moving at all (or better yet: A building-sized bonfire in the center of the camp -- what's the TH mod for a building?).

So, between the LG [TH: 6], a typical Gunner [+2], and a HRSWC [+2] against a non-moving target point [-0], this side of rolling Murphy[*], that bomb is hitting *exactly* where it's aimed. And even a Murphy is only "missed by 1-2" " -- a max scatter of 4". The 1,500-lb. CB's 20d-damage zone is 21" diameter (7" x 1.5 *radius*, so [(7 x 1.5) x2]). (Beyond that is a 10d-damage zone to 12.5" radius; then 5d to 20" radius.)

[*: Natural 2 on 2d6 for the laser; or 2-3 for the LG lock.]
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Old 07-31-2021, 03:48 PM   #50
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Oh, By The Way: "Horizontal bombing to-hit rolls are not affected by range, target size, or movement modifiers. The bomber's gunner [sic] skill and target [sic] computer do affect the to-hit roll." [ibid.] So much for "-88 to-hit"....
If you read the post you will note the -88 referred specifically to Dive Bombing.

Quote:
So, between the LG [TH: 6], a typical Gunner [+2], and a HRSWC [+2] against a non-moving target point [-0], this side of rolling Murphy[*], that bomb is hitting *exactly* where it's aimed. And even a Murphy is only "missed by 1-2" " -- a max scatter of 4". The 1,500-lb. CB's 20d-damage zone is 21" diameter (7" x 1.5 *radius*, so [(7 x 1.5) x2]). (Beyond that is a 10d-damage zone to 12.5" radius; then 5d to 20" radius.)

[*: Natural 2 on 2d6 for the laser; or 2-3 for the LG lock.]
As previously noted in the follow-up post Laser Guided bombs in Aeroduel do not work the same as laser guided rockets in normal CW. If the laser is on target, you do not automatically hit if you roll 4+ as with other laser guidance, you only change the to hit of the bomb from 9 to 6 (Aeroduel p30).

However I presume you are using the ruling from UACFH instead (it would be easier if you gave references). Unfortunately this completely unravels your strategy. Bombs do not have a penalty for horizontal bombing, but all other aimed weapons do and that includes lasers. So you get your -88 to hit with that and cannot hit. So you don't get laser guidance. So your bomb automatically scatters the maximum 10d6" (UACFH P11).

In this case you would actually be better dropping unguided munitions as at least they have a to hit of 9 unaffected by range (or possibly teleguided bombs as they can actually be steered and have a to hit of 6 anyway - a bit spendy though).

I couldn't find anything allowing lasers to guide weapons fired from another platform in any ADQ&A (even sidecar LG rockets can't benefit from a laser on a bike since officially they can't use the regular link needed to fire them together). You can't link weapons on different vehicles and you need a regular link to fire the laser and bomb at the same time (UACFH p45 shows this is still the extant rule). They need to come from the same vehicle and same arc of fire as the laser. Happy to verify if you have a reference but there is a danger it has ben superseded as the LG rules have changed several times since their introduction.

None of this alters the fact that you can't see my gangers on the ground so you can't choose the correct target point (even if you could hit it). You can choose a random building if you want, but I imagine you'll burn more tax payers dollars in munitions that we would from raiding. Hence my comment about the mercenary nature of even law enforcement. You have to be cost effective.

Your comments about a building sized bonfire eludes me. Also as Horizontal bombing ignores target size, the TH mod for a building is irrelevant. It will affect spotting, but not enough at that range to make any difference. You can see a ruined city from a mile up. You may even be able to see individual buildings with good optics. You can't see the ganger on the second story through the roof and a couple of floors (even with thermographs). You have no target unless you intend to carpet bomb the entire city. Ft. Meade Florida (a known biker hideout in my campaign) is about a mile square you will need around 350 1000lb bombs to cover it (assuming they all go exactly where they need to). That's $1.4 million in ordinance alone. Even 300 bikers won't cause that much damage and you won't even kill most of those.

Not convinced (and never have been).

Last edited by swordtart; 08-01-2021 at 12:26 AM.
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