06-21-2019, 12:48 PM | #21 |
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
Has anyone here suggested an interpretation that they actually use at the table and that disagrees with what most posters think should be allowed? I understand the RAW could have been more sharply worded to remove ambiguity, but if everyone is using the same rulings for these situations is there an actual problem?
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06-21-2019, 01:16 PM | #22 | |
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
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06-21-2019, 01:52 PM | #23 |
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
I think that's right. At the start of the thread I tried to explain, as clearly as I possibly could, a bug in the rules. Yes, you can change options, and that is great. The problems is that RAW your available options are determined by your engagement status at the time your turn comes to move.
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06-21-2019, 02:02 PM | #24 | |
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
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So yes, I guess in this case the best outcome is that we are all not playing according to the rules. Seems like kind of a low bar for a set of rules though? |
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06-21-2019, 03:53 PM | #25 | |
Join Date: May 2019
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
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Example. Bolg is engaged by two goblins, front and rear. They're quick and the one in front doesn't fancy tasting Bolg's sword and disengages. The one behind him takes fright and decides to move away as well. All Bolg has done this turn is face one of the goblins. Then he sees another goblin taking aim at him with a hefty looking crossbow. Are you saying that he cannot dodge? Because he started this turn engaged...? Or what about Elthionel who is happily walking through the forest at two hexes a turn when a goblin drops on him and suddenly he is in HTH. Are you saying he cannot attempt to draw a dagger in his action, because he was disengaged and not in HTH at the start of the turn? |
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06-22-2019, 02:46 AM | #26 | |
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
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P 102 “list of options” P 102 “options for disengaged figures” P 103 “options for engaged figures” “Player cards” you can easily find it If you simply ignore all these mentions of options available based on engagement status when turn comes to move [emphasis in original], things work better. Better but not perfect imo as even then you are still unable to defend against a jab. Your examples are another illustration of how the RAW are borked, certainly the dodge one. Exact same arguments apply. Last edited by RobW; 06-22-2019 at 02:56 AM. |
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06-22-2019, 04:31 AM | #27 |
Join Date: May 2019
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
Sorry, maybe I should have been clearer.
When changing options no mention is made of any requirement except not having moved too far. Yes, engagement is mentioned underneath, in the individual options, because that has a secondary effect on what you can choose - an archer cannot fire if they're engaged for instance - but 'correct' engagement at your time to move is not mentioned as a requirement when changing options. I guess in essence, I see this rule, at the top of the whole options list, as taking priority, whereas you see the rules under individual sections taking priority. Maybe it's ambiguous. It is certainly at least up for debate since I and my players never once read it as you have. |
06-22-2019, 09:37 AM | #28 |
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
This doesn't seem that complicated to me.
There are just a couple of actions that are peculiar with respect to the usual order because they oppose another combatant's actions, even when that combatant acts before you. Defend and Dodge are the main ones I have in mind. In these cases, it seems obvious that you are allowed to announce them as your action for that turn whenever the condition they oppose first arises, provided you haven't already performed a different action that turn. Thus you can announce you are defending either at your position in the DX order or earlier if someone attacks you, provided you didn't move in a way that removes Defend from your list of possible actions. Usually this will mean you are engaged at the time you select the Defend action because your foe will be next to and facing you to deliver their attack. So, in these cases you are also conforming to the letter of the law w/r to the 'Options' table. In special cases (jab attacks, or attacks from 1 hex figures vs. multi-hex figures that they technically do not engage) you have to use common sense, which I would say in this case means you can defend against any melee attacks you wish to defend against, provided you meet the basic constraints (you are armed, etc). The general issue here is that TFT is a very rules bound game, but it is also only ~150 pages long and contains tons of material on tons of subjects. So, it is inevitable that you will need to extrapolate rules that are defined for common circumstances to appropriate rulings for unusual circumstances. If the book specified how every rule works in every imaginable circumstance it would be 500 pages long. |
06-22-2019, 03:38 PM | #29 | |
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
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Unfortunately, evidently Phil and Steve still don't understand that this is an issue, and/or prefer to repeat the wording of the published rules, which imply various other interpretations to various people. Sadly, it looks like it's set to be published that way again in Decks of Destiny unless someone manages to get through to them on this point. |
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06-23-2019, 04:49 AM | #30 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
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And to be fair, the issue raised in this thread, about the sequence of play and options, does not seem to be a big concern. Everyone seems to quite rightly ignore it, which is good. Quote:
Melee/Wizard were of course very successful boardgames with very short rulebooks, and within the context of arena combat I don't recall we ever needed to resolve rules ambiguities. Of course that was a long time ago :). But certainly we never decided that the rules were simply wrong! Advanced Melee was another step forward in clarity. In fact, I've just gone back and looked at AM again, and there is nothing in there with this "turn comes to move" business. Options are not listed by engagement status, but listed by how far you've moved. And of course you can change options as long as you haven't moved too far. This is clear and logical. |
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