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Old 10-02-2023, 08:38 PM   #71
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

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Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Since OP (as quoted below) is open to magic, maybe a player who wanted to play a dirt-poor warrior should just take Magery 1 and Reverse Missiles-25, which is way more effective than hardened DR 30 against blaster-type weapons despite being cheaper.
Canonically that Spell won't work against Sunbeam and probably lasers too. The distinction looks to me like whether or not the attacking particles have mass (which photons don't).
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Old 10-02-2023, 08:47 PM   #72
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The distinction looks to me like whether or not the attacking particles have mass (which photons don't).
Nah, it also doesn't work against jets, explosions, or other area effects. Requirement appears to be discrete macroscopic projectiles.
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Old 10-02-2023, 09:54 PM   #73
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

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Nah, it also doesn't work against jets, explosions, or other area effects. Requirement appears to be discrete macroscopic projectiles.
Works against Lightning. Your others aren't Missile Spells (which I know is terribly technical).
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Old 10-03-2023, 12:11 AM   #74
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Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

Yea, see I think a big part of the problem is that he saw the price of innate DR, decided that makes no sense that DR has the same cost at TL3 as it does at TL11 despite the damage output of weapons being many times greater...and decided the whole system is broken after I explained that no, that's how DR works, that's how it's always worked. That makes no sense to him, so he won't play a system that doesn't make sense. There shouldn't be only one way to do something.... which... there isn't only one way to do things but... well, it's past that explanation now.

So I guess in a way this question was and has become even more so for future players in this or other campaigns, what have you all done to solve the DR problem without rewriting the system as he seemed to want me to?
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Old 10-03-2023, 12:31 AM   #75
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Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

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So I guess in a way this question was and has become even more so for future players in this or other campaigns, what have you all done to solve the DR problem without rewriting the system as he seemed to want me to?
Avoided running games where the problem came up. Powers vs gear, over the range of TLs GURPS tries to handle, isn't really a solvable problem without rewriting the system.
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Old 10-03-2023, 06:39 AM   #76
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Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

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...what have you all done to solve the DR problem without rewriting the system as he seemed to want me to?
Explain to the players that the cost is not going to change. Even though magic and powers exist, they still cost what the books say, or what I have written down for the abilities to cost. There is no changing those costs. A person who has innate DR strong enough to stop a blaster rifle damage (lets say 7d) would have to buy DR 25-42 9for resistant to "total immune") and that WILL cost them 125-210 CP. The only way to reduce that cost is to take limitations on it.

Any player that tries to convince me, the GM, to change the cost or they won't play, won't be a player in my game.

I make sure the players understand that I won't argue with them, they can make their point, once, and what ever decision I make is final. They are not the one that spent the time creating a campaign or adventure for them to play in.


That being said, I run my GURPS games with several house rules that DO change the cost of some things. and I let my players know that up front.
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Old 10-03-2023, 08:45 AM   #77
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Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

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So I guess in a way this question was and has become even more so for future players in this or other campaigns, what have you all done to solve the DR problem without rewriting the system as he seemed to want me to?
There have been a few suggestions in the thread on how to adjust the price of DR to the setting, such as buying mundane armor as Signature Gear and then paying a premium to have that DR integrated rather than it being worn. Another option would be to work out how much damage a typical foe deals in your campaign, compare that to a theoretical "typical TL 3" foe (which should probably be ST 10-11 with a spear, but ST 12 with an axe might be more appropriate, considering the PC's probably aren't spending most of their time fighting conscripts), and set it so that having DR equal to the average damage of each is the same price. That is, if our typical TL 8 foe is using an AK47, for 5d+1 pi (average 18.5), while our reference character is ST 12 and wields an axe for 1d+4 cut (average 7.5), that means DR 18.5 in our campaign should cost around what DR 7.5 costs by default, or [37.5], reducing the cost of DR to [2] per level. I'd suggest dealing with armor divisors (if the typical weapon in your TL 11 game is a particle blaster, for example) by giving free levels of Hardened rather than by multiplying DR. If only certain damage types are typically represented at the high end, it may be appropriate to restrict the discount to only apply to those damage types - in a modern setting, crushing damage typically isn't going to be much higher than it is back at TL 3, so maybe that [37.5] actually only gets you DR 18.5 against pi but is still DR 7.5 against most everything else. That can quickly get complicated, however, so a lot of GM's aren't going to want to bother.
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Old 10-03-2023, 09:02 AM   #78
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

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Y
So I guess in a way this question was and has become even more so for future players in this or other campaigns, what have you all done to solve the DR problem without rewriting the system as he seemed to want me to?
In a campaign with absolutely open character concepts I'm afraid you need to untether things from points totals and build to concept only. We've done that a couple of times and it worked fine.

Otherwise you need to limit character concepts so that everyone is working with the same sub-set of rules. So now heavy Powers users (which includes many aliens) with humans or near-humans who have gear.
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Old 10-03-2023, 09:39 AM   #79
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Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Canonically that Spell won't work against Sunbeam and probably lasers too. The distinction looks to me like whether or not the attacking particles have mass (which photons don't).
Off topic, but blasters bolts travel well below lightspeed and don't seem massless, at least in Star Wars.

If blaster-type weapons are common, the player should take it. If not then not.
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Old 10-03-2023, 10:06 AM   #80
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Default Re: Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

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In a campaign with absolutely open character concepts I'm afraid you need to untether things from points totals and build to concept only.
This is probably the most straightforward answer. How I'd do it:
1. Have every player declare what their "spotlight power" is going to be. Unless it breaks the genre or the setting, let them have it. Don't worry about its price tag.

2. Give each player X points to spend normally, however they like.

3. Hold GM-player interviews to smooth the edges, add forgotten traits that make sense, remove traits that do not, and negotiate a few "If you do X, I'll concede Y" matters.

4. Create a character sheet without point values that reflects all of the above. Don't worry about whether Batman and Superman are equals in points . . . As the GM, it's my job to play the writer of the comic and make sure they're equal in spotlight time.
If some player started to abuse the privilege and throw their PC's weight around to outshine or even harm the other PCs, I'd give one warning and then invite them out.

More generally, never give in to blackmail. If someone wants to take their toys and go home, let them. You don't need that kind of gamer at your table.

Yes, I've warned players, invited players out, and let player take their toys and go home. It's harsh but it's part of the GM's job. The GM might not be the boss, but they are definitely doing more of the work at the table and are at a minimum primus inter pares.

All of which said, if what's really going on is an honest, well-intentioned debate about how to fit a character concept to a point total, I think you could do worse than the Signature Gear idea. I wouldn't complicate it with perks and a bunch of qualifications, though. I'd say this:
If the capability you want is attainable with gear sold for money in the setting – however rare or expensive such gear might be – then the price for an innate ability that does exactly what that gear does is the lower of the standard price for that ability and the point cost of that gear as Signature Gear.
So, if being immune to whatever you want to be immune to would cost 300 points as DR or whatever, but some suit available from Suitco Armor Products would grant the same benefit to anyone who spends 20 times starting money, then the cost for that immunity is the 40 points that suit would cost as Signature Gear.

The gear vs. innate argument is a red herring here, because Signature Gear functionally guarantees permanent access to your gear barring bad choices on the player's part or exceptional plot devices on the GM's part. The difference in intention between "I take off my Signature Gear and sell it!" and "I put the blaster nozzle in my mouth and let it bypass my immunity!" is close to nil, as is the difference between "The guy who runs Barter Town insists that you take off your suit!" and "Dr. Unpleasant temporarily suspends your immunity with his Plot-O-Matic Ray!" There's a level at which however you explain a capability, some action – sane or silly – will circumvent or suspend it.
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