Help with explaining why Superman can't get 300 DR for 5 points?

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by acrosome

you want a high-powered campaign then give the players more points. Explain to him that that's how it is done. I honestly have never heard of anything so ridiculous.

When I started setting up Fantasy Mass Battles game, several of the players proposed that they wanted to run two characters each, troupe style, selecting the appropriate character depending on the circumstances. My precis for the campaign was that each of the PCs was adventurer, diplomat, and general (or spymaster), to a greater or lesser degree. Instead, the players revolted and each PC got to specialize into one or two roles to a much greater degree. But it worked, and the campaign was a huge success.

Before that, I ran a modern day hunters go dungeon crawling game. The precis was the PCs were totally mundane aside from latent magical ability. Bruno was sad that she wouldn't be able to play some superhuman monster, and convinced me it was a good idea. We ended up with a group of trolls, dwarves, and half-orcs with guns shooting up a dungeon. It worked out.

As a GM, my ideas for a campaign aren't necessarily as entertaining for the players as they could be. As a player, you never know what the GM will allow unless you ask. Every game set-up is a negotiation between the players and the GM.

A player saying "I want to play a penniless warrior-monk with armor as good as the guys in actual armor" has a pretty reasonable character concept. I'd be kind of peeved if I was told my warrior monk wasn't affordable on the points budget, but if I changed my concept to "rich warrior monk in actual armor" then it wouldn't be a problem at all. Obviously, I might need to pay a premium for invisible, weightless armor, but if the rich monk can put down Wealthy [20] and buy the armor and have money left over, then I should be able to be a penniless warrior-monk with invisible, weightless armor for 60 or 80 CP at most.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

Well, not directly, but let me try it another way.

It's a space campaign. so look at it as the player thinks that his alien species should be able to stand up to a Jedi with a lightsaber or shrug off blasters as if he had a full suit of Mandalorian Armor without having to actually purchase Mandalorian armor. He wants his skin to naturally be as tough. Which can be done, but not for 5 points (which again, was more my example as to how the system works at the base level, stone age weapons or ultra-tech, the cost per point of DR remains the same.) Since the campaign is a space campaign where things like blasters exist, innate species DR he thinks should have its' price reduced to compensate.

The player doesn't want it for 5 points. How much is the player willing to pay? Are they willing to pay the same amount it would take to become mostly immune to most weapons in a TL 3 campaign? (DR 10 or so.)

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

A player saying "I want to play a penniless warrior-monk with armor as good as the guys in actual armor" has a pretty reasonable character concept. I'd be kind of peeved if I was told my warrior monk wasn't affordable on the points budget, but if I changed my concept to "rich warrior monk in actual armor" then it wouldn't be a problem at all. Obviously, I might need to pay a premium for invisible, weightless armor, but if the rich monk can put down Wealthy [20] and buy the armor and have money left over, then I should be able to be a penniless warrior-monk with invisible, weightless armor for 60 or 80 CP at most.

That seems like a reasonable attitude, if the GM is okay with naked-armor superpowers in the first place. In other words I agree with what you said already in post #18. :) https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost....3&postcount=18

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Rupert

To my mind that's not a concept that needs a ton of DR, as they should be surviving by not being hit, and then by being hard to kill, not by being bulletproof.

I'd want to deflect those dangerous attacks and if i didn't have a lightsaber I'd want to do it with the "Force" (or whatever the local equivalent is).

Even in Old School D&D Monk characters get things besides "Armor class" and "hit pts".

Gurps clearly distinguishes between "Warrior Monk" and "Tank" in terms of game mechanics and anyone who won't adapt to that probably shouldn't be playing Gurps.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

So I have a new player who... Seems to have a fundamental problem with the game itself, and I've tried to explain it to him, but he keeps saying it makes no sense.

The setting is a futuristic one, with exotic powers. So, he wants his character to be able to absorb blaster rifles and force sword, but this is expensive. Damage Resistance cost should be scaled to the campaign he thinks.

I... tried using the above example. If Superman were to be dropped in the stone age, he'd only ever need maybe DR 10 or even 5. But you put him today or in the future, then yes he's going to need DR 300. Except, this player thinks that necessary to the campaign setting for his concept DR 300 should have the same cost as the DR 5 and any other way does not make sense to him.

Like, what do I say? There is nothing keeping him from taking high DR, but it seems he doesn't think it should cost him that much?

The higher the ambient damage in the setting the more it makes sense just to go with Damage Reduction.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The higher the ambient damage in the setting the more it makes sense just to go with Damage Reduction.

Not really. Mostly it encourages not taking conventional defenses at all because you can't buy enough of them for an affordable price to make any difference.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Not really. Mostly it encourages not taking conventional defenses at all because you can't buy enough of them for an affordable price to make any difference.

Damage reduction gives you a flat rate for protection that scales with the amount of damage you take

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Not really. Mostly it encourages not taking conventional defenses at all because you can't buy enough of them for an affordable price to make any difference.

IT:DR 1/100 costs [300], which is expensive but calls for around 57d damage per 1 HP wounding (although there is the issue of it rounding up, so even 1 point of damage will result in 1 HP of wounding). That said, for that same [300] you could instead grab Regeneration (Extreme) [150] + Unkillable 3 [150] and make it so you'll fully recover from any hit in, at most, 11 seconds (something that atomizes you, reducing you to -10xHP, would take 11 seconds to get you back up to full HP - and as you're untouchable while "dead," this can't be stopped, plus trapping you won't work because you can just reform somewhere nearby).

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Varyon

IT:DR 1/100 costs [300], which is expensive but calls for around 57d damage per 1 HP wounding (although there is the issue of it rounding up, so even 1 point of damage will result in 1 HP of wounding). That said, for that same [300] you could instead grab Regeneration (Extreme) [150] + Unkillable 3 [150] and make it so you'll fully recover from any hit in, at most, 11 seconds (something that atomizes you, reducing you to -10xHP, would take 11 seconds to get you back up to full HP - and as you're untouchable while "dead," this can't be stopped, plus trapping you won't work because you can just reform somewhere nearby).

No, the GM chooses where your body coalesces, according to the RAW. I'd be checking with the GM about how they intended to deal with it before taking Unkillable 3. Are they going to make the resurrection point' a fixed point and that never changes, or are you going reform at your 'home' (which can change over time, but not quickly), or 'somewhere near where you died'. If the last, what does 'near' mean? If the GM is nice, they might even let you choose where within a certain distance of your point of death, but it's up to the GM. If they're not nice, they could choose anywhere and change it on every death, at which point they're probably either intending to hose you or use it as a plot device (neither of which I'd be happy with - time to choose a new power).

What the cannot do is the trick they can with Unkillable 2 where they can capture your remains and prevent you coming back by dropping them into a tank of acid or the like, but if you reform within a couple of yards of your point of death, they can do something similar.

[RyanW]

I might also point out that gear loadout is part of the point of an ultra tech space campaign, and just buying the equivalent as cheap powers dilutes that.

I mean, you wouldn't let characters in a Crimson Skies campaign take Flight and huge levels of Enhanced Move (Air), when a big point of the setting is the Cool Planes.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Rupert

No, the GM chooses where your body coalesces, according to the RAW. I'd be checking with the GM about how they intended to deal with it before taking Unkillable 3.

I generally operate under the assumption that the GM won't try to screw over the player. The location where the character reforms should be safe - reforming in the middle of a group of armed goons largely defeats the purpose of buying that third level, as would reforming inside an active incinerator, on top of the pressure panel that triggers a trap, inside of a locked cage, or half a mile in the air. Now, OpFor can take efforts to make UK3 less reliable - a soul trap that can imprison your ghost, EMF detectors to work out where you're going to reform (by tracking your energy form) to ambush and capture you, actually just capturing rather than "killing" you, etc - but outside of the occasional comedic interlude, the character shouldn't reform somewhere inconvenient.

But, yeah, confirming you and the GM are on the same page about how your traits work before the start of the campaign (so you can change your design - or even completely scrap it to create a different character - if you find an important ability won't work the way you thought it would) is always a good idea. You'll also want to me certain what you're going for is available, of course - even if Kryptonian/Saiyan/Viltrumite-expies are available, beings that can regenerate from slurry to full in seconds and ones that turn into energy and reform elsewhere upon destruction may well not be.