Independent Income at later TL stages

[TGLS]

Here's a hacky solution to allow Independent Income to be converted into cash. OK, so take whatever level of Independent Income you desire. Then, build as an Alternative Ability with One Use Only, Trade Points for Money.

Here's a worked example: Gary the Graphic Designer owns the rights to some logo that a large corporation uses and can sell them as he pleases. This nets him a decent income. So his player buys Independent Income 5, for an income of $2000 at TL8 with comfortable wealth. To model sale of rights, his player buys Trading Points for Money 25 (x1/5 Alternative Ability, x1/5 One Use Only), for one point, allowing Gary to sell his rights for $50k.

Note that this can be easy to exploit; if the player just turns the Independent Income into cash right away, they technically cheated a bunch of points into existence. If you're worried about that, don't allow one use only on the Trading Points for Money. Also consider using PK's House Rules on trading points for money, so the cash gains scales to the income provided (Just subtract 1 from SWM before multiplying to determine how much money you get after the fact).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Here's a hacky solution to allow Independent Income to be converted into cash. OK, so take whatever level of Independent Income you desire. Then, build as an Alternative Ability with One Use Only, Trade Points for Money.

Here's a worked example: Gary the Graphic Designer owns the rights to some logo that a large corporation uses and can sell them as he pleases. This nets him a decent income. So his player buys Independent Income 5, for an income of $2000 at TL8 with comfortable wealth. To model sale of rights, his player buys Trading Points for Money 25 (x1/5 Alternative Ability, x1/5 One Use Only), for one point, allowing Gary to sell his rights for $50k.

I would be sort of inclined to discourage this kind of rules tweaking.

For one thing, there really isn't a GURPS Capitalism supplement, and I doubt that there ever will be. GURPS isn't a game about financial transactions; it's a game where the financial aspects exist to support adventure stories.

But, more specifically, when I made up Independent Income for the original version of GURPS Steampunk, it was intended to model a commonplace of Victorian literature: the young man (or occasionally the young woman) who has a comfortable amount of money to live on, and who doesn't actually do anything visible to earn it. That's why it was designed to fit the wealth level. A Filthy Rich barrister, or surgeon, or factory owner would have an income, and a lifestyle, and would work more or less full time to support both; a Filthy Rich character with Independent Income wouid have roughly the same income and lifestyle, but wouldn't have a job.

And, of course, some people with such incomes had ways of converting them into cash—though that wasn't all that common a practice; this was the great era of "capital must not be invaded." But if they do that, they're not the same character afterward; they can no longer remain idle, at least not once they've spent the lump sum proceeds. So that would mean rewriting the character sheet in a serious way. I'd hesitate to say that there is a simple game mechanic that lets you swap points around to alter your character sheet; I think there ought to be some storytelling to show how the character takes on these different traits. Then, too, there are forms of wealth that can't be liquidated in this way; that's what trusts are for.

[hal]

I can agree that the game mechanics are intended for one thing, and Bill's explanation as to why someone gets cash without having to work for it is fine. Wealthy Parents who support their children has happened and continues to happen in real life. Bill Gates would be an "interesting character" to try and build using strictly GURPS game mechanics all the while trying to model some real world aspects. I can't even try to fathom what it means to be a Billionaire, let alone a multi-billionaire. Nor would or could I envision just how much income is derived from any of his patents or what have you. And yeah, trying to do GURPS ACCOUNTING is possibly going to be the last book ever desired by any of the gamers *snicker*. But if people are going to discuss gun stats and talk about the minutae involved with length to width ratio, chamber pressures, ballistics and the like, I suppose wanting to be able to do something a little bit more "realistically" might not be too uncalled for. Then again, maybe accounting and finances and all that stuff just causes people's eyes to glaze over long before even two sentences are uttered. I just find it mildly amusing that GURPS TRAVELLER: FAR TRADER as written, while solidly based on real life principles of economics and such - just never seemed to be playable without a computer. <shrug>

So, I hear all the comments, and that's fine. Regards to Trusts and the like - Independent Income works just fine for that. It also works fine for any incidence of external income that one does not have to work for, and is not necessarily a function of financial instruments. But what it doesn't work for all too well, is approximating a stock portfolio largely because the income as a percentage of starting wealth, (would it have worked better as a percentage of income per month instead I wonder?) generates incomes in excess of what a normal return on investment would generate when used at the 20 point advantage level. It is probably safer to use it at simply 5 to maybe 8 percent (5 to 8 points) when simulating stock portfolios, etc.

Hmmm. I wonder how well Initial Stock offering rules from FAR TRADER would work... (something to think about perhaps).

[whswhs]

The thing is, I worked out some accounting rules for the traders in my current bronze age fantasy campaign; I kept track of the costs of crew wages, and supplies, and repairs, and the cost of merchandise, and the value of the goods it was traded for. And after the first few months, the players asked to stop keeping track of those things, and just roll to see how well the trading was going.

Back in my first GURPS campaign, which was set in the world of Uplift, one player kept track of cargoes and values and so on, but the others all ignored the issue.

So my feeling is that this really isn't a topic that most players want to deal with.

And at least trade campaigns involve things like barrels of spices, or recordings of whale songs. Stock portfolios are a lot harder to make exciting.

*****

There's a discussion of language invention on one of the conlang (constructed language) sites, that talks about different levels of language invention. There's a really basic level, which is naming languages, where all you do is come up with the sound pattern and the order of the names. And then above that there are things like invention the system of noun cases and declensions, and whether the language has genders, and how you embed clauses in sentences, and the full grammar of the language.

And you know, in principle, you could do a set of GURPS rules for choosing those aspects of a language in your invented world, and even make up the actual language, and have players learn to say things in it. But in actuality, not one player in a hundred would want to do that. So rules that enable such things wouldn't serve much purpose. But it might be helpful to have a way to come up with names for an invented culture that make a consistent sound pattern.

Rules for figuring out how much money a character has, and can access, and how it supports a lifestyle, are useful. Rules for figuring out their stock portfolio are one of those things that most players won't use.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by hal

But what [Independent Income] doesn't work for all too well, is approximating a stock portfolio largely because the income as a percentage of starting wealth, (would it have worked better as a percentage of income per month instead I wonder?) generates incomes in excess of what a normal return on investment would generate when used at the 20 point advantage level.

The point people have been trying to make, however, is that is not a problem with the rules. Independent Income has never been intended to represent strictly return on investment, and GURPS in general has always had the rule that all traits are subject to GM approval. It's 100% within the rules for the GM to say "you can't take 20 points of Independent Income and justify it as 'return on investment'. By my calculations, only about 1 point of II is justified that way."

[mr beer]

Originally Posted by hal

But what it doesn't work for all too well, is approximating a stock portfolio largely because the income as a percentage of starting wealth, (would it have worked better as a percentage of income per month instead I wonder?) generates incomes in excess of what a normal return on investment would generate when used at the 20 point advantage level. It is probably safer to use it at simply 5 to maybe 8 percent (5 to 8 points) when simulating stock portfolios, etc.

It's not a problem though because it's not tied to any given amount of capital which is producing the rate of return. If my character's job pays $1,000 per month and his Independent Income pays $2,000 per month and I choose to call that a stock portfolio, well then he has a lot of money in stocks and they are his primary source of income.

Flat rates of return are a terrible simulation of stocks anyway. A more suitable choice would be property or better, bonds. Even better would be an annuity or other income stream product.

The reason why 'trust fund' is a good explanation for Independent Income is that the income does not have to relate to a realistic rate of return on capital. The character just gets paid the amount deemed suitable by the trustees.

[Brandy]

Some of this is completely different from the way I think of the various wealth advantages. If you use the wealth system, in whole or in part, you're making a deliberate decision to deal with some of the game's economics abstractly. If what I was wanting was a detailed accounting of a portfolio of stocks and real estate, the income that would generate, and considerations about its liquidity then using the wealth rules is the very last thing I would do.

I use the various parts of the wealth subsystem precisely because I don't want to think about those things, not because I do.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Brandy

Some of this is completely different from the way I think of the various wealth advantages. If you use the wealth system, in whole or in part, you're making a deliberate decision to deal with some of the game's economics abstractly. If what I was wanting was a detailed accounting of a portfolio of stocks and real estate, the income that would generate, and considerations about its liquidity then using the wealth rules is the very last thing I would do.

I use the various parts of the wealth subsystem precisely because I don't want to think about those things, not because I do.

And if you do want to think about economics, using those rules would still be the last step. You figure out what sequence of events you're envisioning, and then translate its results into GURPS advantages and disadvantages.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Renaldon

I'd never consider stocks an independent income. If you want to earn such sums, you will have to work hard. Analyzing data is not so easy as you think.

You won't earn the highest yield without work, but "I buy some stock and sit on it collecting dividends" or "I hire an investment manager to handle my portfolio" is independent income, it's just lower yield.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Renaldon

I'd never consider stocks an independent income. If you want to earn such sums, you will have to work hard. Analyzing data is not so easy as you think.

That's why I have a professional do it for me. His firm handles all the details of my investments.

The only thing that keeps me from having independant Income as Gurps does it is that I could tap into what i have invested and I could change the monthly income I get from my account if I needed to.