[Basic] Skill of the week: Philosophy

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Good point.

Would rolls against Philosophy (Sufism) and Theology (Islam) at +4 work in basing a Public Speaking or Propaganda argument on Sufism philosophies, without claiming a bonus for Supplementary Skill use?

The game effect would be a slight Reaction bonus for those with traits where sympathy or belief in a Sufism flavour of Islam was established and a corresponding Reaction penalty for those with traits establishing Intolerance or other form of aversion or dislike against Sufism specifically or Islam generically.

A skill providing assistance is typically +1 or +2 if it's extremely effective. +2 or +4 is typical of powers. +4 is usually rated as "nearly miraculous."

This rather makes sense: Excellent command of philosophy will only do so much if you utterly lack argumentation skills. A guy mumbling about ethics to justify murder isn't going to get very far, even if his command of those ethics is impeccable, not nearly as far as someone with, say, telepathic Emotion control, or a guy who is an amazing orator.

I would argue, though, that it definitely allows more flexibility in how you can apply things like influence rolls. If you're a Fanatical Muslim terrorist, you're at +3 to resist any attempts to dissuade you from your lethal tasks... but if I successfully use Muslim Theology, I would argue that +3 disappears, because I'm now trying to persuade you from within the framework of your fanaticism.

Similar principles can apply to getting around a bonus to resisting attempts to get someone to violate their code of honor. You're arguing that they aren't violating their code of honor.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

A skill providing assistance is typically +1 or +2 if it's extremely effective. +2 or +4 is typical of powers. +4 is usually rated as "nearly miraculous."

I'm talking about a Philosophy or Theology skill being used as a 'complementary skill' without providing any skill bonus, but instead acting as a justification to apply a modifier to the roll to resist Public Speaking or Propaganda for any traits possessed by the target that give a Reaction bonus or penalty toward memes from the particular Philosophy or Theology.

This effect would presumably be automatic if a particular Philosophy or Theology were used as a Complementary Skill to an Influence or Propaganda check, but as not everyone who makes arguments or propaganda based on memes from certain philosophies or theologies has a professional-level skill at Philosophy or Theology, it makes sense to allow a roll at a positive TDM for a reduced effect, but still using such memes. In effect, the trade-off for an easier skill check (and a lesser chance of a penalised primary skill check for failing a Complementary Skill check), is not getting a +1 (or +2) on a successful roll.

In reality, there is a distinct benefit for managers, agents or memetic engineers to having many skills at a better than default, but less than professional skill. It enables such people to understand the basics well enough to follow what professionals do, even if they can't replicate their work, as well as correctly use jargon to communicate with professionals or enthusiasts of the subject.

The complementary skill rules work out so that any skill lower than skill level 11 is not worth using when targeting a demographic or working with professioonals in a field. I don't think that's realistic. I think that being able to suceed at skill checks that are mundane to true professionals in a field, i.e. at Task Difficulty Modifier +4 or more, is often enough.

For example, while Theology (Ásatrú) -14 might be even better, because it allows a fairly reliable Complementary Skill bonus of +1 or more, Theology (Ásatrú) -10 usually ought to be good enough to craft an advertisement that targets Nordic Pagans, causing those who have relevant traits about Ásatrú to react either more positively or negatively, according to whether they are devout believers or perhaps bigoted against it.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm talking about a Philosophy or Theology skill being used as a 'complementary skill' without providing any skill bonus, but instead acting as a justification to apply a modifier to the roll to resist Public Speaking or Propaganda for any traits possessed by the target that give a Reaction bonus or penalty toward memes from the particular Philosophy or Theology.

This effect would presumably be automatic if a particular Philosophy or Theology were used as a Complementary Skill to an Influence or Propaganda check, but as not everyone who makes arguments or propaganda based on memes from certain philosophies or theologies has a professional-level skill at Philosophy or Theology, it makes sense to allow a roll at a positive TDM for a reduced effect, but still using such memes. In effect, the trade-off for an easier skill check (and a lesser chance of a penalised primary skill check for failing a Complementary Skill check), is not getting a +1 (or +2) on a successful roll.

In reality, there is a distinct benefit for managers, agents or memetic engineers to having many skills at a better than default, but less than professional skill. It enables such people to understand the basics well enough to follow what professionals do, even if they can't replicate their work, as well as correctly use jargon to communicate with professionals or enthusiasts of the subject.

The complementary skill rules work out so that any skill lower than skill level 11 is not worth using when targeting a demographic or working with professioonals in a field. I don't think that's realistic. I think that being able to suceed at skill checks that are mundane to true professionals in a field, i.e. at Task Difficulty Modifier +4 or more, is often enough.

For example, while Theology (Ásatrú) -14 might be even better, because it allows a fairly reliable Complementary Skill bonus of +1 or more, Theology (Ásatrú) -10 usually ought to be good enough to craft an advertisement that targets Nordic Pagans, causing those who have relevant traits about Ásatrú to react either more positively or negatively, according to whether they are devout believers or perhaps bigoted against it.

Well, more advanced knowledge of a philosophy or theology does not necessarily mean that your arguments would be significantly better received by the adherents of that philosophy or theology. Good advertisement arguments are after all often rather simple.

High skill might mostly have an effect on those who are impressed by you showing of advanced knowledge about the subject and reducing the risk of your argument having obscure flaws that might be criticized by experts.

Rather than a positive TDM at the cost of a reduced effect, it might make more sense to assign a TDM based on what kind of argument you are trying to make.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Well, more advanced knowledge of a philosophy or theology does not necessarily mean that your arguments would be significantly better received by the adherents of that philosophy or theology. Good advertisement arguments are after all often rather simple.

Sure, but...

Originally Posted by Andreas

High skill might mostly have an effect on those who are impressed by you showing of advanced knowledge about the subject and reducing the risk of your argument having obscure flaws that might be criticized by experts.

...this fairly minor benefit seems like it should be a pretty fair representation of what a +1 bonus for Complementary Skill use is.

After all, designing your ad campaign in a way that minimises a potential angry backlash from the influential social arbiters among adherents of a given faith or philosophy is probably worth at least a small bonus when you're targeting that faith or adherents of that philosophy as a demographic.

Originally Posted by Andreas

Rather than a positive TDM at the cost of a reduced effect, it might make more sense to assign a TDM based on what kind of argument you are trying to make.

That could also apply. Even default level of Theology (Any Abrahamic, I guess) ought to be enough to base an ad campaign on being excellent to each other, dudes, with specifics of wording depending on exact faith and reactions to the campaign varying for those who feel strongly about the individual faiths in question.

More complex memes from religious or philosophical memeplexes might require deeper knowledge of the subject to hijack, represented by higher skill in Philosophy or Theology, enough to make a check with a low positive TDM or even at unmodified level.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Sure, but...

...this fairly minor benefit seems like it should be a pretty fair representation of what a +1 bonus for Complementary Skill use is.

After all, designing your ad campaign in a way that minimises a potential angry backlash from the influential social arbiters among adherents of a given faith or philosophy is probably worth at least a small bonus when you're targeting that faith or adherents of that philosophy as a demographic.

A +1 for the entire target population might be far too much for that. Even without a high skill, the risk of such flaws in your argument might be low, especially if it is similiar to other arguments made in the past. Even if there is such a flaw, there might be little risk for angry backlash unless the message is one which is disliked by those social arbiters.

I guess it depends on whether your advertising campaign is a controversial one that is likely to generate significant counterpropaganda efforts or if your message is considered to be mostly harmless.

That could also apply. Even default level of Theology (Any Abrahamic, I guess) ought to be enough to base an ad campaign on being excellent to each other, dudes, with specifics of wording depending on exact faith and reactions to the campaign varying for those who feel strongly about the individual faiths in question.

More complex memes from religious or philosophical memeplexes might require deeper knowledge of the subject to hijack, represented by higher skill in Philosophy or Theology, enough to make a check with a low positive TDM or even at unmodified level.

Even negative TDMs should be possible. At least when you are attempting to convince people with very high skill levels (your level in other skills probably matters more for making arguments that your audience can't understand seem convincing).