[DF] Eldritch Knight spell list

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

You need a group of about ten to twenty lists specialized according to why the PCs Knight learned magic. Even for strictly battle oriented Knights there would be a artillerist list, a repair/maintenance list (keeping swords sharp and armor in repair would be a massive benefit on a medieval battle field), an Engineer list (Move Earth would be massively useful even today), a medic list, a dirty tricks list, and a spy list, at a minimum.

Yeah, I was debating "occupational specialties" as well, particularly if I wanted to make my Eldritch Knight generic enough to apply to other settings and TLs beyond just a TL3/4 Dungeon Fantasy game. But for now, at least, I want to stick to mostly direct battle applications (i.e., damage and defense), with only a bit of dabbling in the other areas (maybe 1 or 2 spells each).

I've got a partial list, which I want to tweak just a little bit more that I hope I'll be able to post shortly (real life time permitting) in the hopes that it may lead to more direct discussions/examples.

[Kallatari]

Here's my preliminary list of potential spells for the Eldritch Knight. For now, it only lists spells that thematically fit and may be appropriate, but doesn't attempt to assign them to specific level of talent yet. It's also too long, with too many spells, so it needs to get trimmed down.

As part of my reasoning on spells to select, although I acknowledged that almost any type of spell can be useful to a soldier, especially if you take in specialized soldiers (e.g., artillerist, engineer, medic, scout, spy, etc.), I want spells applicable for the direct, generic soldier instead. So some colleges that could be useful in war (e.g., Knowledge for scouting or spying) aren't added below.

I tried to keep the spells into four broad categories (recommended from the Battle Wizard template form the 3E book Wizards): attack spells to injure or weaken the enemy; defense spells to protect the knight or allies; movement spells to circumvent obstacles, and enhancement spells to boost the knight or his allies.

I also tried to stick to spells used in DFRPG to make it "compatible", but that wasn't a hard rule and there are some exceptions.

So here are the preliminary spell list, sorted by college:

Air: Purify Air, Stench, Walk on Air, Windstorm.

Animal: N/A

Body Control: Climbing, Deathtouch, Debility, Frailty, Grace, Might, Pain, Paralyze Limb, Reflexes, Rooted Feet, Stun, Tangglefoot, Total Paralysis, Vigor, Wither Limb.

Communication and Empahty: N/A

Earth: Shape Earth, Stone Missile.

Fire: Burning Touch, Create Fire, Deflect Energy, Explosive Fireball, Fireball, Flame Jet, Flamming Missiles, Flaming Weapon, Resist Fire.

Food: N/A

Gate: N/A

Healing: Final Rest, Lend Energy, Lend Vitality, Recover Energy, Share Vitality, Stop Bleeding. Note: I don't want them to be good healers, just able to stabilize something in battle until a real healer gets there. I debated Minor Healing, but realized that, at least in my campaign, Lend Vitality and Share Vitality don't get any real use, and fit the stop-gap healing theme better, so went with those.

Illusion: N/A

Knowledge: N/A

Light and Darkness: Continual Light, Blur, Darkness, Hide, Light.

Making and Breaking: Repair, Rive (holes through walls), Sharpen, Shatterproof.

Meta-Spells: Dispel Magic, Magic Resistance, Spellshield.

Mind Control: Alertness, Daze, Keen Ears, Keen Eyes, Sleep.

Movement: Deflect Missile, Grease, Haste, Lighten Burden, Quick March.

Necromantic: N/A

Plant: N/A

Protection and Warning: Armor, Bladeturning, Missile Shield, Resist Acid, Resist Lightning, Resist Poison, Resist Sound, Resist Water, Sense Danger, Shield.

Sound: Mage-Stealth, Sound Jet, Thunderclap.

Water: Ice Dagger, Ice Sphere, Icy Missile, Icy Weapon

Weather: Lightning, Lightning Missiles, Lightning Weapon, Shocking Touch, Wall of Lightning.

Any thoughts on the list? Anything missing?

Needing to trim this down to roughly "4 levels of talent power" with roughly 5 spells per level, which ones would you remove?

Note, I'm not totally set on 5 spells per level, especially if spells duplicate each other... e.g., I could allow Stone Missile, Fireball, Ice Sphere and Lightning to count as "1 spell" at a given level because they all effectively do the same thing (a missile spell), but merely differ in theme. Maybe I'll make this down as "Missile Spell" in my final list, and let the knight choose whichever they want.

[mlangsdorf]

I'm assuming a DX-based magic list, so most of these spells are cast at 13-15. That's enough to make them reliable, but not good enough for overcoming resistance. So most of them are buff spells, along with some of the better combat spells.

The list is unsorted, but it is in rough order by college.

• Concussion - A 1d Concussion, tossed amongst a bunch of foes 10 yards away, is a great fight opener.
• Walk on Air - melee fighters need to be able to reach their foes, including flying ones.
• Might - Strength is good.
• Grace - More dexterity makes a knight faster and more accurate.
• Deathtouch - Difficult for a metal weapon user to deploy in combat, but damage that ignores armor is valuable.
• Flaming Weapon, Flaming Missiles - Bonus damage helps.
• Resist Fire - Immunity to fire is helpful when fighting fire using foes. Also allows a knight to comfortable wear heavy armor in the desert.
• Know Illusion - Cheap and absolute immunity to visible illusions.
• Blur - A foe who doesn't hit is no threat.
• See Invisible - It is hard to fight what cannot be seen.
• Repair - Preventive maintenance for a knight's gear.
• Command - A resisted spell, but so useful for confounding low-Will foes in melee.
• Haste - Increased movement speed makes it easier to reach foes in melee combat.
• Grease - Expensive, but very valuable for hindering strong but clumsy foes.
• Glue - Expensive, but very valuable for hindering dextrous but weak foes.
• Great Haste - Expensive, but cheaper if self-cast, and altered time rate is extremely powerful.
• Missile Shield - Archers don't automatically assume that a heavily armored knight has this up, and even if the archer shoots the knight with meteoric arrows, the knight is heavily armored.
• Resist Acid - Acid is a rare threat, but not having to repair corroded armor is good.
• Resist Lightning - Lightning easily penetrates metal armor, so immunity is good.

There's no real theme, just a bunch of spells that are useful for primary melee fighters.

As far as talent levels:
Unstoppable (Level 1): Missile Shield, Repair, Resist Acid, Resist Fire, Resist Lightning
Implacable (Level 2): Command, Haste, Know Illusion, See Invisible, Walk on Air
Unparalleled (Level 3): Blur, Flaming Missiles, Flaming Weapons, Grace, Might
Destruction (Level 4): Concussion, Deathtouch, Glue, Grease, Great Haste

Hope that helps. (and sorry I didn't respond to your list, but we wrote them at the same time.)

[johndallman]

Here's another way to do it. I'm a bit wary of the Denizens casting styles that are based on DX or HT for whoosh-bang magic. But a set of abilities that more or less duplicate spells, which are based on the skills in the Born War-Leader talent are a lot easier for me. They'd be something like this:

Intelligence Analysis: Negating enemy abilities. Missile Shield, Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, See Invisible.

Leadership: Getting your troops to ignore their limitations. Stop Bleeding, Share Vitality, Vitality, Quick March.

Savoir-Faire (Military): Taking care of your mates. Resist Cold, Final Rest, Lend Energy, Lend Vitality.

Strategy: Solving problems the enemy leadership sends you. Alertness, Stun, Repair, Shatterproof.

Tactics: Outdoing the immediate enemy. Climbing, Grace, Might, Walk on Air (as a leap).

Now, this could be based on one skill's abilities per level of the talent, or one ability from each skill per level of the talent. Not sure about that yet.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

As part of my reasoning on spells to select, although I acknowledged that almost any type of spell can be useful to a soldier

I'd focus on spells useful for a DF Knight, a heavily armored melee warrior and battlefield leader. Soldier is too broad. He's not a sneaky scout or master of magic.

Needing to trim this down to roughly "4 levels of talent power" with roughly 5 spells per level, which ones would you remove?

I'd leave all the big, slow spells to the wizards. And I'd generally ditch Missile spells, as they don't work very well in GURPS without some specialization such as the Psychic Guidance perk and a potion belt of Paut spells. The Eldritch Knight has other things to carry.

Somewhat relatedly, damaging Jet spells are pretty useful for highly skilled wizards with noodle arms, giving them a high damage short range attack. But a knight has a high damage short range attack in his melee weapon.

I'd drop Dispel Magic and Spellshield, as being firmly in the wizard category. Also, the relatively unskilled Eldritch Knight probably isn't going to succeed on the Dispel Magic resistance contest very often, but spends a lot of time and FP to fail.

I'd skip most of the sense and stealth related spells (Alertness, Mage-Stealth, Hide, etc). Those belong to the thief and the scout in the DF context.

Final Rest seems like it intrudes too much into the territory of Clerics, Holy Warriors, and Saints.

Note, I'm not totally set on 5 spells per level, especially if spells duplicate each other... e.g., I could allow Stone Missile, Fireball, Ice Sphere and Lightning to count as "1 spell" at a given level because they all effectively do the same thing.... Maybe I'll make this down as "Missile Spell" in my final list, and let the knight choose whichever they want.

Makes sense to me.

[Astromancer]

The best battlefield Johnny-one-spells would be, A) Move Earth, it let's you build defenses in a couple of minutes, or bury troops quickly. B) Fog instant cover. C) Reflect Missle it messes up the people attacking you. And C) Ignite, it really messes up seige towers and the like.

[binn05]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Here's another way to do it. I'm a bit wary of the Denizens casting styles that are based on DX or HT for whoosh-bang magic. But a set of abilities that more or less duplicate spells, which are based on the skills in the Born War-Leader talent are a lot easier for me. They'd be something like this:

Intelligence Analysis: Negating enemy abilities. Missile Shield, Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, See Invisible.

Leadership: Getting your troops to ignore their limitations. Stop Bleeding, Share Vitality, Vitality, Quick March.

Savoir-Faire (Military): Taking care of your mates. Resist Cold, Final Rest, Lend Energy, Lend Vitality.

Strategy: Solving problems the enemy leadership sends you. Alertness, Stun, Repair, Shatterproof.

Tactics: Outdoing the immediate enemy. Climbing, Grace, Might, Walk on Air (as a leap).

Now, this could be based on one skill's abilities per level of the talent, or one ability from each skill per level of the talent. Not sure about that yet.

This is an ingenious way of using skills that don't get much spotlight in a typical dungeon crawl DF game. How would this interact with changing them from IQ to DX only for spell-casting?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by binn05

How would this interact with changing them from IQ to DX only for spell-casting?

They'd be based on IQ+Talent which is 12 to 16 (given power-ups), or more if you allow Knights to buy up IQ, which has always seemed reasonable to me.

[binn05]

Originally Posted by johndallman

They'd be based on IQ+Talent which is 12 to 16 (given power-ups), or more if you allow Knights to buy up IQ, which has always seemed reasonable to me.

Those are reasonable skill levels for someone for whom casting is not his primary role. I can see that working and lifting some weight from the dedicated party magic-users.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I'd focus on spells useful for a DF Knight, a heavily armored melee warrior and battlefield leader. Soldier is too broad. He's not a sneaky scout or master of magic.

I'd leave all the big, slow spells to the wizards. And I'd generally ditch Missile spells, as they don't work very well in GURPS without some specialization such as the Psychic Guidance perk and a potion belt of Paut spells. The Eldritch Knight has other things to carry.

Somewhat relatedly, damaging Jet spells are pretty useful for highly skilled wizards with noodle arms, giving them a high damage short range attack. But a knight has a high damage short range attack in his melee weapon.

I'd drop Dispel Magic and Spellshield, as being firmly in the wizard category. Also, the relatively unskilled Eldritch Knight probably isn't going to succeed on the Dispel Magic resistance contest very often, but spends a lot of time and FP to fail.

I'd skip most of the sense and stealth related spells (Alertness, Mage-Stealth, Hide, etc). Those belong to the thief and the scout in the DF context.

Final Rest seems like it intrudes too much into the territory of Clerics, Holy Warriors, and Saints.

Just wanted to say thanks, and that I agree with most of your reasoning/logic here. And I appreciate your list from your previous post as well.

The one item I am not in complete agreement with you is Spell Shield (or perhaps Spell Wall as an alternative). I concur the energy cost is a bit high, but not unsurmountable for a warrior who generally has a high FP. And I agree that, it working as a contest of skill, it will be of little use against actual "mage bosses" who will have high enough spell skills to burn through the low-skilled Eldritch Knight's Spell Shield with ease. But I think it can still be potentially useful against cannon fodder/mook mage apprentices, who have low skill levels (12 ish), and are usually only good for casting 3 or 4 spells before they're out of FP and thus out of the fight... assuming they last that long before the PCs wipe them out. Ah yeah, at those levels the PCs have a good chance of resisting the spells anyway, but the Spell Shield effectively gives everyone two chances at resisting and therefore reduces the group's use of other methods of dealing with a possible failure of resisting (expenditures of points to buy a success, Luck, etc.).

Granted, that's a style of play issue. I use lots of low-level encounters and low-level mages as quick encounters, but that's me. If the GM is constantly using high-skilled spellcasters as the opponents - even with the simple boost of skill to 15 so that energy costs are dropped by 1 - then Spell Shield would indeed be of little or limited use to an Eldritch Knight.

I'll probably add it to my final list anyway, but yeah, I would warn a player about the expectations behind it, and that its viability depends on how optimized NPC spellcasters are.