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Old 11-22-2020, 05:18 AM   #1
FeiLin
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Injuries and hit locations

Injury and Recovery (MA136) lets you track injury per location.

1. How does that interact with Basic? For instance, if I take a hit to the arm and to the leg, I guess that this also counts toward 0 HP and having to start making HT rolls to stay conscious, etc, so I have to track both per limb and injury total, right?

2. Also, limb/extremity/etc injuries are capped at crippling levels; does that still hold for extreme dismemberment?

3. Finally, are none of the non-crippling effects pertinent until 2×HT s have passed, meaning that the only direct immediate numerical effect on combat ability is shock? I didn't find it explicitly, but I guess that the torso replaces the normal 1/3×HP consequences and that torso only comes into effect after the adrenaline wears off.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:10 AM   #2
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Injuries and hit locations

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
Injury and Recovery (MA136) lets you track injury per location.
1. How does that interact with Basic?
For instance, if I take a hit to the arm and to the leg,
I guess that this also counts toward 0 HP and having to start making HT rolls to stay conscious, etc,
so I have to track both per limb and injury total, right?
AFAIK yes, unless you have Injury Tolerance: Independent Body Parts.

Something like that probably makes sense for cars/trucks now that I think about it...

Reducing something with 10 HP to -10 HP (death check) requires 20 damage, which for a human could be done by crippling 2 limbs (6x2) and 2 extremities (4x2)

I guess if wheels are extremities/feet then it must be the axles which are the limbs/legs? It's actually hard to think of what "death" actually means in this case... would a car's radio possible cease to work because if an axle breaking?

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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
2. Also, limb/extremity/etc injuries are capped at crippling levels; does that still hold for extreme dismemberment?
B421 doesn't mention that the destruction/dismemberment of a limb can surpass the usual cap of damage (like 6 HP for a crippled limb in example)

Having those be more life-threatening would be covered by using MA138's "Severe Bleeding" rules which gives extra penalties to the bleeding rules for destroyed limbs/extremities, with an extra penalty if the destruction was dismemberment-by-cutting. The -3/-4 for limbs is identical to targeting veins/arteries on that limb.

Veins/Arteries might somehow be worse (inexplicably) though because unlike dismemberment there's no mention of it reverting to normal bleeding rules once HP lost to blood loss equals amount needed to cripple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
3. Finally, are none of the non-crippling effects pertinent until 2×HT s have passed,
meaning that the only direct immediate numerical effect on combat ability is shock?
I didn't find it explicitly,
Seems like it. Would be interesting to have some kind of "low adrenaline" quirk that might reduce that to merely HT seconds.

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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
but I guess that the torso replaces the normal 1/3×HP consequences
and that torso only comes into effect after the adrenaline wears off.
That's an interesting observation... MA136's parenthesis does indeed say "the usual penalty for having less than 1/3 your HP remaining)."

If that's no longer instantaneous (delayed for seconds) then that WOULD be a major rules shift...

My speculation is that the highest tier of injury on all parts is meant to be instantaneous. You can "ignore the effects of a non-crippling injury for... " but we can see for limbs (arm/leg) that the charts' final entry is "injury over HP/2" with "cripples the leg".

Injury over 2/3 might be meant like that (akin to "cripples the torso") where the -3 to DX (unlike the -1 or -2) is meant to be instant.

- - -

this actually raises an interesting scenario for HP 10guy...

take 6 HP to torso (more than half, less than 2/3) you're -2 to DX and -20% move (B419 presumably all types ground/air/water? doesn't say basic speed so I guess you can still dodge perfectly?)

he could OTOH take 2 HP to each leg (4 HP total) without any move penalties (just DX penalties for kicking) and 1 HP to each foot (MA124 "bruised knuckles" rules for delivering kicks) for another 2 HP ... he has also lost 6 HP but his Move is still at full, even though he took these injuries to his means of locomotion instead of the torso. But then all of a sudden if he cuts his finger (1 HP lost) his HP drops from 4 to 3 and the full 50% move reduction takes effect.

I'd like to see HP induce things at 20% or 10% increments like FP does in Last Gasp
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Old 12-03-2020, 06:48 AM   #3
FeiLin
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Injuries and hit locations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Something like that probably makes sense for cars/trucks now that I think about it...

I guess if wheels are extremities/feet then it must be the axles which are the limbs/legs? It's actually hard to think of what "death" actually means in this case... would a car's radio possible cease to work because if an axle breaking?
Heh, interesting example. I guess a "dead" car is one which has broken down to the point it no longer starts (or at least move), but has the perk "equipment works until battery's run out" (which most vehicles would have)?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
B421 doesn't mention that the destruction/dismemberment of a limb can surpass the usual cap of damage (like 6 HP for a crippled limb in example)

Having those be more life-threatening would be covered by using MA138's "Severe Bleeding" rules which gives extra penalties to the bleeding rules for destroyed limbs/extremities, with an extra penalty if the destruction was dismemberment-by-cutting. The -3/-4 for limbs is identical to targeting veins/arteries on that limb.

Veins/Arteries might somehow be worse (inexplicably) though because unlike dismemberment there's no mention of it reverting to normal bleeding rules once HP lost to blood loss equals amount needed to cripple.
That's what I gathered; the dismemberment of a limb wont inflict more than a crippling. I found on B421 that it says: "If injury to a body part before applying the above limit was at least twice what was needed to cripple it, the body part is not just crippled but destroyed" (so that answers my own question).

One thing that perplexes me about limb loss and crippling (or even any damage), is that while there are some effects in 20 seconds, beyond shock the next second, I wont feel anything. Now, IRL, I've never lost a limb/extremity, but quite a few borderline cripplings, but whenever I've taken damage, I've felt what I would assume is the equivalent of Pain/Agony. How come there's no pain connected to losing/crippling a limb (or even just taking damage)? I could perhaps see if you remain still and rest, the effects would be delayed, but the exertion of combat, are you really in shape to hit back?

Suppose 10 HP, the arm is crippled at 6. The very next round there's some shock, but bleeding is per 30 seconds, and with 4 HP, what's there to stop me from using my other arm to attack for another 20 odd seconds? Shouldn't a crippling be Moderate/Severe Pain and a lost limb be Terrible Pain/Agony, or something along those lines? I mean, I get there's adrenaline pumping, but is it really that strong? (I have no idea.)

On the other hand, sure, I could see that it's waaay more gameable that way. Otherwise, it's basically "every combat first to 1 hit", almost regardless of HP and other factors, and that might not be realistic either (or at least not fun).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
That's an interesting observation... MA136's parenthesis does indeed say "the usual penalty for having less than 1/3 your HP remaining)."

If that's no longer instantaneous (delayed for seconds) then that WOULD be a major rules shift...

My speculation is that the highest tier of injury on all parts is meant to be instantaneous. You can "ignore the effects of a non-crippling injury for... " but we can see for limbs (arm/leg) that the charts' final entry is "injury over HP/2" with "cripples the leg".

Injury over 2/3 might be meant like that (akin to "cripples the torso") where the -3 to DX (unlike the -1 or -2) is meant to be instant.
Definitely. I could even see all levels as instantaneous, tbh, or at least that the adrenaline last shorter time (HT or HT/2 s?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'd like to see HP induce things at 20% or 10% increments
Yeah, that would make sense, and I'd be open to that. Perhaps that's too narrow increments to be meaningful or distinguishable? Damage is pretty random as is. Most average ST characters roll 1d and add something, which might mean 1d+1 may be 2 or it may be 7, with equal probability. Narrow increments would rather embrace that randomness by hooking up penalties to those rolls (especially the first blow).
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Old 12-03-2020, 08:45 AM   #4
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Injuries and hit locations

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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
How come there's no pain connected to losing/crippling a limb (or even just taking damage)?
Not sure, I think Conditional Injury introduced that.

Otherwise the closest seems to be if you failed your HT roll due to it being a major wound and maybe got stunned.
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Old 12-03-2020, 10:01 AM   #5
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Injuries and hit locations

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Originally Posted by FeiLin View Post
One thing that perplexes me about limb loss and crippling (or even any damage), is that while there are some effects in 20 seconds, beyond shock the next second, I wont feel anything.
I believe Martial Arts has some relevant rules - it assumes beyond the initial shock penalty, adrenaline and endorphins basically let you ignore the pain for a time during combat, but later it kicks in. Additionally, I believe there are some issues regarding using a wounded limb (or extremity) to strike. And, of course, the Pyramid article on Conditional Injury, as referenced by Plane, has certain categories of wounds inflict a certain level of pain.
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hit location, ma136, non-crippling injury, partial injury, realistic injury

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