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Old 02-11-2009, 03:48 PM   #11
Stone Dog
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
In DF3, Barbarians have also DR (Tough Skin, -40%), not limited to crushing. They can take either or both.
Why doesn't it list the different point costs then? The only available point cost there is "[1 or 2]" not "[1 or 2] or [3 or 6]." Is that errata that I've missed somewhere? The way I'm looking at it is that Barbarians can buy a little DR for one or two points. That means -80%.

Quote:
Tough skin is widely considered a free limitation in the "GURPS community", so to speak.
The GURPS community needs to get their characters poisoned more often then. Or electrified. Or any other attack that requires a scratch or skin contact. There are a lot of those options.

Quote:
In a DF game, DR (Tough Skin) is unarguably far more effective than DR (Limited: Elemental), and is cheaper, too.
Screw that. I'll take DR versus fire, rocks, sand storms, obsidian knives, water jets, icicle stabbings, all of the elemental damage spells and anything else that "if you can explain this as one of the four classic elements, you get your DR against it"

Hell, concussion blasts and electricity attacks are in the Air college. To me that means that they get the DR vs explosions and shock attacks too. Same thing for the Water college and acid spells. I wouldn't give that to mere "tough skin." Especially not acid.

Granted, it doesn't work against plant matter or animal attacks and some forms of exotic energy, I'm sure. But I'd let it work against metal too.

Make people EARN that extra -20% for Tough Skin. In my games Tough Skin will help you in the majority of fights, but that is it.
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Old 02-11-2009, 04:45 PM   #12
Lupo
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
Why doesn't it list the different point costs then? The only available point cost there is "[1 or 2]" not "[1 or 2] or [3 or 6]." Is that errata that I've missed somewhere? The way I'm looking at it is that Barbarians can buy a little DR for one or two points. That means -80%.
My copy of DF3 includes "Damage Resistance 1 or 2 (Tough Skin, -40%) [3 or 6]" as well as the "limited: crushing" version. I am looking at it right now, so unless it got changed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
The GURPS community needs to get their characters poisoned more often then. Or electrified. Or any other attack that requires a scratch or skin contact. There are a lot of those options.
Note that you'll have ordinary armor on top of natural Tough Skin. I do use those options and they occasionally come into play; other times, the poison don't penetrate ordinary, "full" DR, or conversely it penetrates so much that DR is irrelevant.
I am not saying that Tough Skin isn't a limitation, I am saying it should be worth -10%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
Make people EARN that extra -20% for Tough Skin. In my games Tough Skin will help you in the majority of fights, but that is it.
Tough Skin is worth -40%, not -20%. This is why I am saying it's a VERY good deal, compared to other kind of Damage Resistance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
Screw that. I'll take DR versus fire, rocks, sand storms, obsidian knives, water jets, icicle stabbings, all of the elemental damage spells and anything else that "if you can explain this as one of the four classic elements, you get your DR against it"
I don't see your point. Damage Resistance (Tough Skin) DOES protect against all these threats, and it's cheaper. So?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
Granted, it doesn't work against plant matter or animal attacks and some forms of exotic energy, I'm sure. But I'd let it work against metal too.
This seems to be an unreasonably broad interpretation of "Elemental". Strictly speaking, *everything* is (supposed to be) made of the 4 elements; that's the very definition of "elemental".
But "Elemental" in GURPS means, obviously, "directly related to the 4 raw elements, water fire earth air" (see as an example the Elemental power modifiers in Powers)

Weapons are made of iron and wood, not of earth or water, and most certainly don't count as "Elemental".

Even if they do, Damage Resistance (Tough Skin) is superior and cheaper, so I can't understand your point...
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Old 02-11-2009, 05:36 PM   #13
Stone Dog
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
My copy of DF3 includes "Damage Resistance 1 or 2 (Tough Skin, -40%) [3 or 6]" as well as the "limited: crushing" version. I am looking at it right now, so unless it got changed...
I'm looking at mine right now too. There is no option. It might have become changed to one version or the other. I'll concede that point willingly and as such, go ahead and say that Barbarian DR can protect against some of the threats previously listed.
Quote:
Note that you'll have ordinary armor on top of natural Tough Skin. I do use those options and they occasionally come into play; other times, the poison don't penetrate ordinary, "full" DR, or conversely it penetrates so much that DR is irrelevant.
Isn't that covered by layering rules? Lets just say DR4 for armor and DR2 for tough skin. An attack with a poisoned dagger does 5 damage. The dagger reaches just enough through the armor to scratch the skin. There is no injury, but there is poison.
Quote:
I am not saying that Tough Skin isn't a limitation, I am saying it should be worth -10%.
Or maybe you should exploit it a bit more? Either way is a valid option. If you don't exploit it at full value once in a while, it certainly should count as less.
Quote:
Tough Skin is worth -40%, not -20%. This is why I am saying it's a VERY good deal, compared to other kind of Damage Resistance.
EXTRA -20%. Extra. As in -20% more than Elemental.
Quote:
This seems to be an unreasonably broad interpretation of "Elemental".
Elemental is the same discount as "Very Common." To me that means that it covers a "very common" set of events. As in broad. I think you have an unreasonably narrow interpretation of "Tough Skin." We might have to agree to disagree on that point.
Quote:
Strictly speaking, *everything* is (supposed to be) made of the 4 elements; that's the very definition of "elemental".
Pretty much, yes. However, I'll say that once it gets to the "Plants and animals" stage of matter the mystical Elemental nature is nicely diluted.
Quote:
Even if they do, Damage Resistance (Tough Skin) is superior and cheaper, so I can't understand your point...
I'm trying to tell you that there are ways to make sure that Tough Skin is cheaper because it is inferior.

All something needs to do to get past Tough Skin is to do damage with a gentle touch or produce even a cinematic amount of blood. Expand that a bit more than a poison dart or an electric shock. It doesn't count against; fire, acid, frostbite, caustic gasses, steam, sand in the eyes, hot pokers or being slowly crushed by rocks. Elemental in my games protects against all of these things by virtue of either; being directly related to the element in question, being directly derived from the element in question or showing up on the elemental spell lists in some form. I admit, I might be pushing it on the frostbite thing, but I'm running with it.

Tough Skin doesn't discriminate about what you are getting whacked with, though. Bones, claws, sticks and the like are blocked just as easily as swords and knives. However, you DO have to get whacked with something.

So yes. Tough Skin the way you are playing it might only be worth -10%. My players get a full -40% out of the deal.
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:24 PM   #14
Kromm
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Tough Skin is horribly limiting. Imagine you have DR 2 leather armor and DR 4 with Tough Skin. Sure, your DR is 6 for the purpose of avoiding HP damage from the basic attack. However, because even exactly 0 damage, or 2 points in this case, touches your skin, your DR acts as 1 for the purpose of avoiding anything with Blood Agent, Contact, or Follow-Up; Side Effects (which use penetrating damage and not injury!); the Pressure Points skill; and so on. Given the sheer number of biting and stinging things down in dungeons, it's no gimme.

For something that has an anemic sting (say, 1d) but a horrid venom (say, 3d) – which is most venomous critters – Tough Skin amounts to "this DR doesn't usefully exist." The knight with DR 6 plate armor can ignore that sting. The barbarian with DR 6 from the above combo will on average end up taking 8.75 damage from the sting, because on 2 (exactly 0) to 6 on the 1d of physical damage, he might not take injury from the blow but he takes 3d damage from the poison.
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Old 02-12-2009, 03:56 AM   #15
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Well, a few reasons why Bards might want to use instruments instead of singing.

You can exert a higher FP after-combat penalty if the Bard used his Singing skill during the fight. IIRC there's an FP penalty for all fights lasting longer than a few rounds, higher if you were encumbered. It seems sensible to me to charge 1 additional FP if the Bard used his Singing skill for more than 3 rounds during any one fight. That might make a big difference, though...

Also, instruments can be magical, and give a bonus to the skill used to playing them, while in some magic systems, perhaps many, it is difficult if not impossible to make a magic item that boosts singing skill. So the Bard can either buy bonus instruments (high quality craftsmanship, or Enchanted, or both) or find them as loot.

The big question here is, are there any benefits of higher-than-14 Instrument skill, for a Bard?
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:00 AM   #16
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
Yes, Druidic DR is the most expensive, but it also looks like it is the most useful overall.
Also, since Druidic DR is obviously a of completely supernatural origin, there will on average be less GM resistance towards players wishing to buy it up with earned experience points.

I mean, a Barbarian buying his DR up to 4 or 5 would be a suspension-of-disbelief threat, and a Martial Artist buying his up to more than 7 or 8 would too, but a Druid? I don't see a problem with that at all.
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Old 02-12-2009, 05:56 AM   #17
Lupo
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
The barbarian with DR 6 from the above combo will on average end up taking 8.75 damage from the sting, because on 2 (exactly 0) to 6 on the 1d of physical damage, he might not take injury from the blow but he takes 3d damage from the poison.
Typically the Barbarian will have DR 4 (Tough Skin) AND a RD 4+ armor on top of that. Tough Skin is somewhat limiting, but for 3 points/level it's still a very good deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
You can exert a higher FP after-combat penalty if the Bard used his Singing skill during the fight. IIRC there's an FP penalty for all fights lasting longer than a few rounds, higher if you were encumbered. It seems sensible to me to charge 1 additional FP if the Bard used his Singing skill for more than 3 rounds during any one fight. That might make a big difference, though...
Quite unfair... "Costs extra fatigue" should be explicitly mentioned in the "Bardic" power modifier. Note that Bard spells cost fatigue on their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
The big question here is, are there any benefits of higher-than-14 Instrument skill, for a Bard?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
I mean, a Barbarian buying his DR up to 4 or 5 would be a suspension-of-disbelief threat, and a Martial Artist buying his up to more than 7 or 8 would too, but a Druid? I don't see a problem with that at all.
By RAW, Bards, Barbarian and Martial Artists can get only DR 2 and they can't improve that.
If they could, every PC will buy DR 10 and they would be near-invincible in a low-tech game.
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Old 02-12-2009, 06:09 AM   #18
Lupo
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
I'm looking at mine right now too. There is no option. It might have become changed to one version or the other.
I doubt they removed an option... Btw I thought I downloaded the latest version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
Isn't that covered by layering rules? Lets just say DR4 for armor and DR2 for tough skin. An attack with a poisoned dagger does 5 damage. The dagger reaches just enough through the armor to scratch the skin. There is no injury, but there is poison.
My point exactly. If the attack deals less than 5 damage, or more than 6 damage, Tough Skin is irrelevant. It becomes relevant only for attacks dealing *exactly* 5 or 6 damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
Or maybe you should exploit it a bit more? Either way is a valid option. If you don't exploit it at full value once in a while, it certainly should count as less.
You are assuming I don't exploit it... why? I can assure you I do exploit it. If by "exploiting" you mean that "each and every attack should be poisonous", then I think this is unfair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
EXTRA -20%. Extra. As in -20% more than Elemental.
Sorry, my bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
Elemental is the same discount as "Very Common." To me that means that it covers a "very common" set of events. As in broad. I think you have an unreasonably narrow interpretation of "Tough Skin." We might have to agree to disagree on that point.
I am interpreting Tough Skin by the RAW, we are disagreeing on how common are threats that bypass it, not the "broadness" of Tough Skin itself.
Elemental is a "very common" category, if you compare it with other "very common" examples (all melee attacks, all ranged, all physical attacks) you will see that "any physical or energy attack loosely related with elements, including metal" is too broad.
Specifically, I'd be ready to bet $100 that, by RAW, Elemental does NOT include metal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
I'm trying to tell you that there are ways to make sure that Tough Skin is cheaper because it is inferior.
Yes and they're called "cheating" or "adversarial GMing".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Dog
So yes. Tough Skin the way you are playing it might only be worth -10%. My players get a full -40% out of the deal.
Again, you assume that I enforce Tough Skin in the "wrong way". I don't know what convinced you of this, but I can assure you that I've always played it by RAW. That's not the point...
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Old 02-12-2009, 07:09 AM   #19
aesir23
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
My point exactly. If the attack deals less than 5 damage, or more than 6 damage, Tough Skin is irrelevant. It becomes relevant only for attacks dealing *exactly* 5 or 6 damage.
Not quite. An attack just needs 2 points of damage to overcome the leather armor for Tough Skin to be relevant.
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:28 AM   #20
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
Yes and they're called "cheating" or "adversarial GMing".
First: We're discussing Dungeon Fantasy, which is explicitly a somewhat adversarial style.

Second: It's neither cheating nor adversarial for the GM to create situations in which limited DR isn't as good as non-limited DR. The player has paid less for his DR; it should be less good. It's cheating for the GM NOT to run into situations where your Tough Skin is less useful, because if you never do, you've gotten something for nothing.

Kromm's example of a 1d stinger with a 3d followup is an excellent one. Tough Skin also won't protect you against:

-The HT penalties on Water as-Sharak's 'Ocean's Frozen Spray' ability or that of an Earth as-Sharak's 'Desert's Sand' ability;
-An Erupting Slime's Slimeball attack;
-A Frost Snake's 2d toxic follow-up, which will affect you fully even if its 1d bite is stopped to exactly 0 points by your armor;
-A Toxifier's Toxic Attack.

That's just from the stock monsters provided in DF2.

Tough Skin is not a free limitation.
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