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Old 09-29-2020, 08:31 PM   #1
MakDemonik
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Default Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

I wasn't exactly sure whether this should go to the DFRPG or the GURPS forum but as I reference GURPS rules multiple times for comparison I decided to be better safe than sorry/annoying.

No matter how many times I read the description of the DFRPG Extra attack. I do not see anything disallowing from using the same weapon twice as the extra attack. Now the point cost is still [25] but GURPS Powers prices Multi-Strike as a 20% enhancement. (So it would cost [30] points to attack with the same ready weapon)

Am I assuming correctly that this is not an oversight but a rather a simplification and the DFRPG Extra Attack is just meant to be stronger at the same price point?

And maybe a side question, but still related. What DFRPG does specify thought is that the weapon needs to be ready. A scout can buy Extra Attack 1, but a bow is not exactly ready after firing it. And with so many points going into the scouts bow focus (Strongbow perk, Heroic archer, Weapon Master) Paying 25 points to not be able to use your best attack twice when all the other classes do have that option feels a bit unfair for the archer.

Now a player of mine knows about the original GURPS:DF11 Power-Ups splat with Dual Weapon Attack (Bow). And asked me whether she can buy the Double arrow strike which would be similar in function to the above. But in this case I feel it's horribly underpriced.

Even ignoring the fact how physics work and that 2 arrows on the same bowstring would equal 1/2 force on each arrow so half damage (since this if Fatnasy After all). This technique effectively doubles the archers damage capabilities for just [6] points and is even better than the regular Dual Weapon Attack, since there is no Off-Hand to speak off (Its a Bow you always use both hands) so the -4 offhand penalty is waived. Which makes using it again [5] or [4] points cheaper than normal DWA (since you dont need ambidexterity or OHWT)

From the top of my head I just came up with the following solution based on some simple calculations but I would really like some input on it before I just allow for it and then it will break something in the future or feel unfair.

Modified DWA (Bow): Double-Shot [15] or [14]
Gurps converts modifiers of +4 to 1 die and +7 to 2 dice.
Since an arrow would lose half its strength if 2 are drawn at the same time this is equal to a -2 per die of damage penalty on each arrow. To not have to calculate that we add 2 points of Striking Strength 4 with a similar modifier as Backstab (Only Dual Arrow Technique, -60%) which brings the damage roughly back to -2/+2 (as each 2 more ST rougly equals +1 in Thr damage).
Traits: OG Power-Up [6] or [7], 4 Striking ST (-60%) [8], Total: [14] or [15]
What do you guys think about that solution? Is it too harsh?

Well either that... or maybe I'm going to allow for the Vanilla Double-Shot power up but will require the technique to use AoA:Strong as a required Maneuver to use the technique, where the 'Strong' option doesn't add any more damage but functions to set-off the hypothetical power loss of two arrows even though that would strain the bow.
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Old 09-29-2020, 09:25 PM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

I would allow dual weapon attack (bow) if you have the ability to wield two bows at once (various bug people, for example). There's no reason to extrapolate the changes to extra attack to apply to maneuvers (I don't have DF11, don't know exactly what it says, but I presume it is what it says it is).

It's common to allow characters with multiple attacks to trade an attack for a ready.
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:19 AM   #3
Rolando
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Panama
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

I don't GM DFRPG, and have read little of all that, but if you are playing DFRPG and this is for DFRPG maybe you should:

1. Post it too, in the DFRPG forums as probably someone experienced in that version of GURPS will surely have better insight, and

2. As far as I know DFRPG is very high power high adventure gaming, a few points more or less will not break the game. Let the players have what they want, if they feel the character need the cool ability let them play the cool ability. If during the game you feel it is too easy, think something later, maybe a better magical bow with magical thunder arrows, but the arrows are created by the bow, so no double thunder arrow, or whatever, make it more difficult, talk to them, etc. But for the most part, let the swords clash and the arrows fly in an spectacular way.
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:40 AM   #4
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

DFRPG extra-attack is extra-attack (multi-strike+20%, single skill -20%) and assume that most characters will only use one skill anyway ...

There is a Kromm quote to that effect, I just misplaced it :)

Edit : here it is : http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...03&postcount=4
It is for DF, but i think it is fair to say it extend to DFRPG

Last edited by Celjabba; 09-30-2020 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 09-30-2020, 05:42 AM   #5
MakDemonik
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
I don't GM DFRPG, and have read little of all that, but if you are playing DFRPG and this is for DFRPG maybe you should:

1. Post it too, in the DFRPG forums as probably someone experienced in that version of GURPS will surely have better insight, and
I even planned to but then it was way too GURPS rules heavy. Maybe I really should just post the question itself again without mentioning any GURPS specific rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
2. As far as I know DFRPG is very high power high adventure gaming, a few points more or less will not break the game. Let the players have what they want, if they feel the character need the cool ability let them play the cool ability. If during the game you feel it is too easy, think something later, maybe a better magical bow with magical thunder arrows, but the arrows are created by the bow, so no double thunder arrow, or whatever, make it more difficult, talk to them, etc. But for the most part, let the swords clash and the arrows fly in an spectacular way.
It is. Very high fantasy. My main concern was. 6 points is not 'a few points less' but close to 80% less than Extra Attack so I'm still kinda worried the others will see this as unfair. Especially that using the same trick with 2 melee weapons still has that -4 offhand penalty applied.

But maybe you are right and I should not overthink it too much and allow for it. That being said I still want to make it fairer for Melee and Ranged options and just say. Both options will cost equal amounts and with [10] as a package which includes OWT, or [5] if you have ambidexterity.

"Take it or leave it. Lets just keep it fair."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
DFRPG extra-attack is extra-attack (multi-strike+20%, single skill -20%) and assume that most characters will only use one skill anyway ...

There is a Kromm quote to that effect, I just misplaced it :)

Edit : here it is : http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...03&postcount=4
It is for DF, but i think it is fair to say it extend to DFRPG
This Kromm quote/ Explanation actually really helps especially for other GURPS:DF tempalates in the future as I would probably pointlessly try to debate my players which version of Extra attack we should use from now on.
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Old 09-30-2020, 06:00 AM   #6
Balor Patch
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

My reckoning is that for GURPS DF (and subsequently DFRPG) it was decided that because Extra Attack was primarily used with multistrike +20% and one weapon -20%, was sometimes used with one limb per attack, but was almost never used with both it just wasn't worth keeping track of.
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Old 09-30-2020, 06:13 AM   #7
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

Having run DF for many years (and DFRPG really just seems to me like the same thing), I can tell you what I've done.

1) I treat Extra Attack as having multi-strike for free, for all characters. 25 points is a lot, and most fighters already have a good way of doing multiple attacks with the same limb (Rapid Strike). Scouts can't Rapid Strike, so they really need that EA to get extra attacks--this drawback is more than made up for by the utility of a ranged attack.

2) I disallow Double Shot for Scouts. Dual-Weapon Attack normally comes with some balancing drawbacks: you need two weapons, you can't combine it with Rapid Strike, you need Off-Hand Weapon Training. Double Shot is basically just Extra Attack for a fraction of the points. I see no point in allowing this huge discount. I told my players they are welcome to describe Extra Attack as a "double shot" if they want to feel like Legolas.

Even without Double Shot, some players have complained that a Scout with Extra Attacks is too effective in combat, since it's so easy to do Move and Attacks and play mobile machine gun turret, staying out of harms way while delivering those devastating vitals/eye shots.
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Old 09-30-2020, 09:46 PM   #8
Imbicatus
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post

Even without Double Shot, some players have complained that a Scout with Extra Attacks is too effective in combat, since it's so easy to do Move and Attacks and play mobile machine gun turret, staying out of harms way while delivering those devastating vitals/eye shots.
How is doing move and attacks effective? Heroic Archer halves penalties for acrobatics, but no where does it say that it removed the skill cap of 9 for move and attack. Thatís still going to be a lot of misses, even if they do fire two shots a round.
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Old 09-30-2020, 10:12 PM   #9
Rupert
 
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Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imbicatus View Post
How is doing move and attacks effective? Heroic Archer halves penalties for acrobatics, but no where does it say that it removed the skill cap of 9 for move and attack. That’s still going to be a lot of misses, even if they do fire two shots a round.
Missile attacks are not capped at 9 for Move and Attack to start with.
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Old 09-30-2020, 10:13 PM   #10
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Extra Attacks in GURPS vs. DFRPG (and Scouts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imbicatus View Post
How is doing move and attacks effective? Heroic Archer halves penalties for acrobatics, but no where does it say that it removed the skill cap of 9 for move and attack.
Skill cap of 9 is for melee weapons. Ranged weapons is a penalty equal to Bulk (so -6 to -8 for bows) but no cap.
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