07-17-2015, 04:15 PM | #51 |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
There is also a "game balance" issue. People forget that while their archer is sitting back delivering slower attacks and less damage that they are not getting hurt while they do so. Archers want to have all of the benefits of a melee character with none of the risks. If they want to be as effective as a melee character then get up close and suffer all of the downsides that go with it. Archers tend to forget that the reason why they can sit back and shoot with impunity is because of the other people standing between them and the enemy getting hurt instead.
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07-17-2015, 04:29 PM | #52 |
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
I think people are just more accustomed to thinking of firearms and bows slot into that same role in their minds.
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07-17-2015, 04:43 PM | #53 |
Dog of Lysdexics
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
Using the two 150 point character I quoted before again starting at the 200 yards you specified.
Given they both have the same basic speed but the swords-person has a slightly higher DX the will go first Turn 1: Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre close 6 yards. Distance 194 yds Archer: Fast-draws(arrow)-14 then nocks and draws the bow with a Ready Manoeuvre, uses their Step to step back. Distance 195 yds Turn 2: Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre now sprinting at 7 yd/s. Distance 188 yds Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 189 yards Turn 3: Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 182 yds Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 183 yards Turn 4: Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 176 yds Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 177 yards Turn 5: Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 170 yds Archer: All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -12 range (speed no effect either because you can ignore it when both are humans on foot or because the fighter is moving directly towards the archer) - 3 (Hit location Vitals) Effective Skill 9. vs Block of 11. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 35.6% * (100% - 62.5%) = 15.25% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (50% - 37.5%) * (100% - 62.5%) = 4.6875% Torso Hit now a 1d+5(2) pi Fine Bokken arrow vs Scale Torso Armor (DR 4) Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 15.25% + 6.5 * 1 * 4.6875% = 3.2784375 injury [note if the damage comes from the vital that will be a minim of 12 points injury vs 15 HP so will be a major wound and 33.3% chance that the torso hit would be major wound.] Archer fast draws another Arrow Turn 6: Swords person: expected ~ at 11.7215625 HP but high pain tolerance ignores any shock and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 163 yds Archer: Uses Ready to nock and draw the arrow, and steps back. Distance 164 yds Turn 7: Swords person: expected ~ at 11.7215625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 157 yds Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 158 yds Turn 8: Swords person: expected ~ at 11.7215625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 151 yds Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 152 yards Turn 9: Swords person: expected ~ at 11.7215625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 145 yds Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 146 yards Turn 10: Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 139 yds Archer: All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -11 range - 3 (Hit location Vitals) Effective Skill 10. vs Block of 11. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 48.1% * (100% - 62.5%) = 19.9375% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (62.5% - 50%) * (100% - 62.5%) = 4.6875% Torso Hit Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 19.9375% + 6.5 * 1 * 4.6875% = 4.1925 injury Archer fast draws another Arrow Turn 11: Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP (slightly over 1/2 HP) but high pain tolerance ignores any shock and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 139 yds Archer: User Ready to nock and draw the arrow, and steps back. Distance 140 yds Turn 12: Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 133 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 134 yds Turn 13: Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 127 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 128 yds Turn 14: Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 121 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 122 yds Turn 15: Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 115 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 122 yds Archer: Uses All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -11 range - 3 (Hit location Vitals) Effective Skill 10. vs Block of 11. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 48.1% * (100% - 62.5%) = 19.9375% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (62.5% - 50%) * (100% - 62.5%) = 4.6875% Torso Hit Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 19.9375% + 6.5 * 1 * 4.6875% = 4.1925 injury Archer fast draws another Arrow Turn 16: Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP (this is below 1/3 HP) but high pain tolerance ignores any shock But move is reduced to 3, and Dodge 4 and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards FP reduced by 1 to FP 11 for sprinting for 15 seconds. Distance 118 yds Archer: User Ready to nock and draw the arrow, and steps back. Distance 119 yds Turn 17: Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 115 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 116 yds Turn 18: Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 112 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 113 yds Turn 19: Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 109 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 110 yds Turn 20: Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 106 yds Archer: Uses All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -11 range - 3 (Hit location Vitals) Realising their desperate plight the swords person user Feverish Defence for -1 FP and +2 to active defence Effective Skill 10. vs Block of 13. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 48.1% * (100% - 83.8%) = 9.6922% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (62.5% - 50%) * (100% - 83.8%) = 2.025% Torso Hit Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 9.6922% + 6.5 * 1 * 2.025% = 2.021604 injury Archer fast draws another Arrow Turn 21: Swords person: expected ~ at 1.3149585 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards and FP 10. Distance 102 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 103 yds Turn 22: Swords person: expected ~ at 1.3149585 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 98 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 99 yds Turn 23: Swords person: expected ~ at 1.3149585 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 95 yds Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 96 yds Turn 24: Swords person: expected ~ at 1.3149585 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 92 yds Archer: Uses All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -10 range - 3 (Hit location Vitals) Realising their desperate plight the swords person user Feverish Defence for -1 FP and +2 to active defence Effective Skill 11. vs Block of 13. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 60.6% * (100% - 83.8%) = 11.7172% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (74.1% - 62.5%) * (100% - 83.8%) = 1.8792% Torso Hit Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 11.7172% + 6.5 * 1 * 1.8792% = 2.407002 injury Archer fast draws another Arrow now the Swords person is expect to below zero hp and is rolling just to stay couscous 92 yards away from the archer. [ack its worse than that because the swords person is farther away because I forgot to factor in the fact he's lightly encumbered!] |
07-17-2015, 05:07 PM | #54 | |
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
Quote:
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07-17-2015, 05:09 PM | #55 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
The 6ft bowshot is not something I've seen happening in LARPing, 6ft is to close really, they can reach out and hit your bow
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07-17-2015, 05:33 PM | #56 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
Playing an archer really depends on what kind of game you're playing.
In a realistic game, archers will tend to be secondary rank fighters that depend on others to protect them while they shoot. Or even use skills as camouflage and stealth to act as snipers. On the other end is the more cinematic Dungeon Fantasy, where Scouts can wreck havoc with a game. The potential is there for killing a foe a round with one, or two, arrows a round or so. I personally built an Ogre Scout. Terrifying amount of damage every round. |
07-17-2015, 05:35 PM | #57 |
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Kernersville, NC
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
You guys rule, thank you so much!!
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07-17-2015, 05:43 PM | #58 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
It should be noted that the general desirable non cinematic things for archers are the same general desirable non cinematic things for meleeists, you want to be strong and have some DX
So, nothing prevents Mr Archer from becoming Mr Meleeist when the time comes, they are both lenses on the general purpose Fighter chassis |
07-17-2015, 05:52 PM | #59 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
Quote:
If you can make a melee fighter who could stand in the front rank and simultaneously diffuse enemy attacks and do damage faster than the archer can, the back rank benefit isn't doing the group any favors. And you can do that if you're running a party of equal PCs. Back-ranking is probably beneficial for hirelings and sidekicks, who can deliver supplemental firepower without needing to defend themselves against enemies matched outside their weight class. Maybe it's useful for mages, who can do enough with the points saved by not having front-line toughness to be worth it. For archer PCs...they need something more to pull their weight.
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07-17-2015, 05:57 PM | #60 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
That is, of course, significantly cinematic and a-historic. Historical fighting bows probably involved speeds of less than 200 fps, which means a 200 yard shot is a flight time of about 3s. Predicting the position of a running human 3s in advance, particularly if the running human knows that someone is shooting at him, is going to be a crapshoot at best. If visibility is good, he may be able to see your arrows and predict their trajectory by enough to deliberately dodge them, which will make hitting nearly impossible.
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