[Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Noctifer

Yeah... I had some nagging troubles with GURPS Magic that I was having a hard time putting my finger on. After reading over some threads here, more experienced minds have started to help me specify those problems. I think I'll be investing in RPM soon...

Keep in mind that RPM was intended for "secret magic" settings, and emphasizes research and prep for encounters. People here certainly use it for DF-style artillery wizards, but that's not really one of its goals.

Lovers of the fireball have also posted various houserules to make Missile spells in the spells-as-skills more deadly.

Or another simple alternative is to have the mages buy an Innate Attack for more dakka, and use Magic for the rest.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Okay everyone. But if firing a bow 6 feet has only a 50% chance of success, then you must roll for walking a straight line on anything but perfectly flat paved cement.

Well, depends how straight a line you need to walk. That's actually something people do routinely fail to do. Normally nobody cares whether you're walking in a straight line...

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I shoot from default so must have a skill below 10, yet I simply will not miss from 6 feet unless someone is actively shoving me or I get some weird unpredictable muscle spasm. That's just my height away. That's literally right in front of me.

Your height, horizontally, may be more distance than you realize. Most couches I've met are at most a little over six feet long, including the arms. Six feet is certainly not a distance where you could reach out and touch the target. (Of course it's literally right in front of you, that's a direction, not a distance...)

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Even if I have some kind of talent, I have not spent hundreds of hours practicing to result in even a single point spent.

I wish this absurdity would die. There is no rule requiring or even suggesting that you must have hundreds of hours of practice in something to have a single point.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I shoot from default so must have a skill below 10, yet I simply will not miss from 6 feet unless someone is actively shoving me or I get some weird unpredictable muscle spasm. That's just my height away. That's literally right in front of me.

Get in a firefight with people trying to kill you, then get back to us on that. People actually trained in the use of firearms can and frequently do miss at close ranges. Quick googling turns up pretty poor numbers: I'm seeing police accuracy in shootings of about 40% within 6 feet, and about 20% from 6-21 feet. That's roughly what you'd expect from a final effective skill of 10 (Actually, slightly worse), after any bonuses or penalties. Those same officers perform much better at the range, I'm sure.

Shooting in a non-combat situation is a far more difficult thing than shooting in a combat situation. No, you will not have 100% accuracy in a firefight. You can go on youtube and find plenty of videos of shootings where someone approached to within six feet (Including one I remember on a victim buckled into a vehicle), fired multiple rounds (Some even empty their weapons), and failed to hit their intended target even once.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Noctifer

TL;DR version: Why on earth would you use a bow in GURPS?

Leaving aside the example, someone with a bow has the advantage at range and not in melee combat. All weapons are better in some situations that others. An archer should set themselves up in an advantageous situation that favours their advantage and disadvantages their targets.

That's how you win a fight, you fight the way you want that favours your advantages, and not the way your enemy wants to fight that favours his.

It doesn't matter how good the chap with the sword is there is nothing can do at range except get closer, that's where the archer excels, at range. He does even better if he has mates or terrain who can help keep it that way. The longer you keep a fight in your area of advantage and your enemies area of disadvantage the easier it will be for you. What's even better once you start winning that fight your advantages will often compound with the changing situation. In this case if your enemy has to close distance with you that gets harder for him if you stick with an arrow and he drops to 1/3HP or less. (if you using last gasp he'll lose APs even if you just hit for less than that).

What else can you do at range? You can run away and try again later. (again with compounding advantages this becomes easier if your target is wounded).

Ambush, harass, and run off, rinse & repeat.

It's not heroic, it's not Legolas doing melee archery, but it's slightly more realistic and will keep you archer alive for longer. If you do want to do Legolas, that's fine you can with the various cinematic options.


In reality it is harder to inflict damage at range given muscle powered weapons both in terms of accuracy and transmission of energy, but Imp is nasty so long as no one is wearing serious armour.

As it is the bows in LT are overpowered! (check out deadly spring in pyramid)

Against an unarmoured target 1d+1 Imp is going to be a very nasty wound on most realistic humans

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I shoot from default so must have a skill below 10, yet I simply will not miss from 6 feet unless someone is actively shoving me or I get some weird unpredictable muscle spasm. That's just my height away. That's literally right in front of me.

Ongoing, changing combat situations measured on a second by second basis against targets that aren't just standing there (even without worrying about active defences) is not like doing stuff at leisure with nothing on the line and at an immobile target.

And even a couple of positive mods (non combat or otherwise) to that situation in GURPS terms seriously increases your chances.

[Culture20]

Originally Posted by Noctifer

Also, I was wondering why his Move was so fast... I read and re-read B354 more than once and it seemed pretty clear that Move multiplied... when I went back and re-read it, I realized that I ran into two familiar annoyances with GURPS: there's a box in the middle of the page I should've read past, instead of moving to the top of the next column and, for some reason, they're repeating information on an Advantage (Enhanced Move) in the general rules on Sprinting.

My #1 GURPS rule book design pet peeve. If you're going to separate a paragraph with a half-page sized box, don't put just a few (usually critical) lines at the bottom of the page and continue the paragraph up top in the column beside the previous portion of the paragraph. The worst is when it reads fluidly but changes the intent dramatically. Move all optional boxes to the top or bottom of pages so as not to separate text and I'd be a lot happier.

[Noctifer]

Originally Posted by Culture20

My #1 GURPS rule book design pet peeve. If you're going to separate a paragraph with a half-page sized box, don't put just a few (usually critical) lines at the bottom of the page and continue the paragraph up top in the column beside the previous portion of the paragraph. The worst is when it reads fluidly but changes the intent dramatically. Move all optional boxes to the top or bottom of pages so as not to separate text and I'd be a lot happier.

Heh... I thought I was the only one!

I love GURPS, particularly 4th ed. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. But as a former technical writer, the layouts and overall structure of the books drive me absolutely mad. I can't shake the feeling that this is the reason many find GURPS so intimidating and/or confusing. Every time I try to find a rule at the game table, I often start gnashing my teeth at how much flippage has to occur. By way of example... look up 'Jumping' in the index (which, actually, is done well)... four different pages spread across two books!?

This might warrant a thread of its own (I'm sure its been done), but to me, this is the primary reason there needs to be a new edition (or even just a 4th edition Revised". Not to change the rules around (much), just to make the rules more accessible and organized.

[Blood Legend]

Originally Posted by Noctifer

Am I missing something?

TL;DR version: Why on earth would you use a bow in GURPS?

20 yards a second?!?! He can run 40 miles an hour? Found your problem buddy. The fastest man alive has I think a total of move 12?

Try that at move 5 with the bowman using armor piercing arrows (low-tech).

Not saying your swordsman shouldn't beat Shadofax in a sprint, but if that's what the bowman is up against...

Edit: Gahhhhhhh page 8, ignore me.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Another tactic I've seen used where you only have one bowman is the fire-and-forget uber-heavy crossbow.

I've had that work well: fire one aimed shot when the opponents are two moves away, drop the crossbow and ready shield and weapon.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Noctifer

Heh... I thought I was the only one!

Nope. I despise those boxes. I wish they had restricted the content of them to at least non-essential/non-operative rules, but I've even encountered things where the box contains stuff that should go right in the text, but for some reason a box was created. Grrr.

[Adversary]

Haven't read the whole thread but a couple of thoughts on how to make an effective archer at below-heroic point levels:

--The Strongbow perk gives +2 to strength for drawing a bow if your skill is Dex +2, which it should be for a dedicated archer.

--Weapon Bond perk gives +1 to skill with your bow. Yes, a swordsman can take it too, but a melee fighter will also be using his shield and possibly unarmed combat skills (to fight off grapples and such). An archer will use his bow almost exclusively and so gets more mileage from the perk.

--Fine arrows are a lot cheaper than a Fine sword.

Yes, an archer gets fewer attacks than a melee fighter. However, in a typical fantasy combat scenario of mixed adventuring party against mixed foes, having an archer gives the party several advantages:

--ability to hit opponents in the back rank (e.g. the enemy wizard), or who are in otherwise inaccessible positions.

--ability to put damage where you want it. The archer can shoot foes who need one more hit to go down, wherever they are on the battlefield. He can maneuver to get a shot on a foe a melee fighter is having trouble with (the fencer with a great parry, the guy with the tower shield). He can assist a party member who is on the ropes. He can punish an opponent who gives up his defenses for an all-out attack.

I'm not sure that a dedicated archer is an optimized combatant in a average-person point level game, but I think an archer can be useful and playable.