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Old 01-26-2013, 04:53 PM   #41
trooper6
 
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Default Re: [DF] Bard Song Terror - does Bardic Talent help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
It's definitely possible to sing one song and play another. You might need to practice the combo a few times, and it might sound bad, but alternately you might get a lovely medly or mash/up effect. Fundementally, whatever you play on your instrament is whatever you play on your instrament.
One can play and sing two different things...but can one two different Actions maneuvers in a round? Because that is what we are talking about. Once Concentration maneuver for Bravery, one Concentration maneuver for Terror.

That really seems like you need Compartmentalized Mind for that.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:57 PM   #42
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Default Re: [DF] Bard Song Terror - does Bardic Talent help?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
Terror is awesome! All you need is a little bit of planning ahead. The Bravery spell is really cheap. The bard can cast that first, then blast his horn or drums to terrify the enemy with his Terror advantage.
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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
One can play and sing two different things...but can one two different Actions maneuvers in a round? Because that is what we are talking about.
I think you're the only one talking about that. The way I understand ErhnamDJ is that you have

Round 1: Bravery (by, I don't know, playing the maraccas)
Round 2: Terror (by screaming heavy metal lyrics) Bravery continues as long as the bard commits to shaking those maraccas.
Round 3 and subsequent rounds: Terror and Bravery continue as long as the bard continues shaking those maraccas and screaming those lyrics. If he has some ankle bells he might be able to pull off a third effect :)
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:04 PM   #43
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Default Re: [DF] Bard Song Terror - does Bardic Talent help?

It doesn't make any sense for it to require an action to play an instrument or to sing. If it takes your entire action to maintain an effect, then that would be a much larger limitation.

Besides, people in real life can play an instrument or sing while doing other things. Those people don't have Compartmentalized Mind or ATR, do they?

This is something we need rules for. I've been ignoring it, though, in my games, and allowing the bard to do this stuff at no penalty. I don't ask for any rolls to see if he succeeds in singing. That would be a big nuisance. I get that there should be a penalty to sing and fight at the same time, but that's going to introduce an awful lot of problems for what is only a minor limitation. And this is Dungeon Fantasy we're talking about. It's not like we're worrying over the minutiae with other stuff. If we're not going to use the bleeding rules, or the damage to shields rules, then I don't think we need to worry about bards doing multiple things at once.

At most, I would call it a ten point advantage to ignore. Call it Compartmentalized Mind (Only to ignore stuff that would cause annoying bardic penalties, -80%) [10] if you like.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:25 PM   #44
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Default Re: [DF] Bard Song Terror - does Bardic Talent help?

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
It doesn't make any sense for it to require an action to play an instrument or to sing. If it takes your entire action to maintain an effect, then that would be a much larger limitation.

Besides, people in real life can play an instrument or sing while doing other things. Those people don't have Compartmentalized Mind or ATR, do they?

This is something we need rules for. I've been ignoring it, though, in my games, and allowing the bard to do this stuff at no penalty. I don't ask for any rolls to see if he succeeds in singing. That would be a big nuisance. I get that there should be a penalty to sing and fight at the same time, but that's going to introduce an awful lot of problems for what is only a minor limitation. And this is Dungeon Fantasy we're talking about. It's not like we're worrying over the minutiae with other stuff. If we're not going to use the bleeding rules, or the damage to shields rules, then I don't think we need to worry about bards doing multiple things at once.

At most, I would call it a ten point advantage to ignore. Call it Compartmentalized Mind (Only to ignore stuff that would cause annoying bardic penalties, -80%) [10] if you like.
You are right, this is something we need rules for....or rules clarification. I suppose what I'd like is to know is if there are official rules are on the topic.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:48 PM   #45
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Default Re: [DF] Bard Song Terror - does Bardic Talent help?

I was reminded of this bit from DF11, p. 20.

"A bard can use only one Song at a time. He may stop playing and coast on the results he has achieved, but if he switches Songs, the effects of the previous one end instantly. To reflect this drawback, he pays full cost for his most expensive Song but merely 1/5 cost (rounded up) for each of the others. Should he later add or improve Songs, redo this calculation."

Which states that Bards cannot have more than one song active at a time. Does this apply to spells with the Song limitation as well? If so, then I suppose you can't play one song on the maracas and another with the voice.

(Bruno, I want you to know that I'm now imagining Ricky Ricardo doing some very strange Bardic things)
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:58 PM   #46
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Default Re: [DF] Bard Song Terror - does Bardic Talent help?

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
I was reminded of this bit from DF11, p. 20.

. . .

Which states that Bards cannot have more than one song active at a time. Does this apply to spells with the Song limitation as well? If so, then I suppose you can't play one song on the maracas and another with the voice.
That's explaining how alternative abilities work. Those songs it's referring to are purchased as alternative abilities.
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Old 01-26-2013, 06:42 PM   #47
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Default Re: [DF] Bard Song Terror - does Bardic Talent help?

Bards use spells with the music limitation as well as having access to spell-like effects as alternate abilities. It appears to me that these songs are a sort of spells-as-powers as alternative abilities to Bardic Talent. The Bardic Talent is prerequisite to casting the more traditional spells.

I'd rule that spells cast via Bardic Talent that require maintenance expire as soon as a Bard Song is used. Spells with durations might continue, however. Bravery lasts one hour, and cannot be maintained. I look at duration as the effect of the spell, independent of what happens to the caster, so I would rule that Bravery continues, even if the caster switches his active Alternate Ability or if he dies.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:17 AM   #48
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Default Re: [DF] Bard Song Terror - does Bardic Talent help?

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It appears to me that these songs are a sort of spells-as-powers as alternative abilities to Bardic Talent. The Bardic Talent is prerequisite to casting the more traditional spells.
Nah. They're not alternative abilities to the Talent. That's like saying spells are an alternative ability to Magery.

The Talent doesn't stop working while you use the songs and you don't get a price discount for your first song; you have to pay full price. If it was an AA of the Talent, then you would get a big discount on your first one. Which is a fine idea, mind, and I would prefer for it to work that way. But that's not how it works. Also, those songs cost more than the Talent they have as a prerequisite, so obviously they're not AAs.

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I'd rule that spells cast via Bardic Talent that require maintenance expire as soon as a Bard Song is used.
That doesn't follow the text.

Quote:
Spells with durations might continue, however. Bravery lasts one hour, and cannot be maintained. I look at duration as the effect of the spell, independent of what happens to the caster, so I would rule that Bravery continues, even if the caster switches his active Alternate Ability or if he dies.
I'm not sure if Bravery should even stop. The Song limitation in Basic says you have to sing to cast spells and it points to the rituals section of the magic chapter.

I would rule, then, that you only need to sing to cast the spell in the first place, and that additional singing is not required to maintain bard spells.

I think that's the correct interpretation, and that's what I was assuming originally when I suggested using Bravery with the Terror power. Just look at what it says for Bardic Talent:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DF 1
Bardic Talent both adds to Bard-Song rolls and lets the bard cast Communication and Empathy and Mind Control spells (only!) as if he were a wizard who had the same level of Magery with the Song limitation.
The song limitation doesn't say anything at all about maintaining spells. So I would assume that works as normal.


Where the need to sing or play an instrument comes in is with the abilities with the Bard-Song modifier on them, which works differently from the song limitation which they have on their Magery.

That stuff under Bard-Song, then, only applies to those abilities with that modifier. Not to his spells. And we still need rules for fighting while singing or playing an instrument, or doing two things at once. But oh well.



Therefore, under the clear reading of the text, the bard can maintain his spells as normal, maintain multiple spells, and do everything else as a wizard. The only difference with his spells is that he never ignores the need to speak as a ritual, and that speaking must be in a musical form. That's all the song limitation does on his spells.

We were getting the Song limitation for his Magery and the Bard-Song limitation for his powers mixed together earlier. They're two separate things and they each work very differently.



So Bravery + Terror works just fine, and that's the best use of the Terror power if you don't mind spending the FP to cast the spell. Otherwise, just have the rest of the party plug their ears while you pound on your drums from a half a mile away or whatever. You can terrify an entire village with that thing. It's one of the best area attacks in the game.
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Last edited by ErhnamDJ; 01-27-2013 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 01-27-2013, 03:41 PM   #49
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Default Re: [DF] Bard Song Terror - does Bardic Talent help?

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Nah. They're not alternative abilities to the Talent.
Ah. I misread DF11 p20. There is a prerequisite Bardic Talent, but they are, as you say, AA of one another, not Bardic Talent.
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