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Old 02-12-2009, 06:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

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Originally Posted by Bruno
Given those two things, it sounds like slimes are water elementals.
That might be a good thing to rule.

Druidic DR might just block even the physical attacks of water elementals. Now, slimes might not be elemental spirits themselves, but might be sufficiently water aspected to count.

That would give the Druid a little bit more oomph in the dungeon.
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Old 02-12-2009, 06:42 PM   #32
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

A few notes...

I do get what you're saying about the -40% on Tough Skin, that it's a big discount for it's limitations. The way I see it, is because at low DR the limitations aren't very apparent (or relevant, I agree). For instance, with Tough Skin DR of 2, it only makes a difference to poisoning or whatever on those 2 points... on top of that, another big part of the Tough Skin limitation... flexibility... is utterly irrelevant╣, because blunt trauma only happens at 5 points of damage or more.

On a DR 5 (Tough Skin) though, you not only have a large bracket of damage (5 points) where poisoning and follow-ups happen, you also might get affected by blunt trauma. The -40% seems more appropriate. It's still not fully appreciated, because you need to have exactly 5 points of damage. With even greater flexible DR, say 9... you get blunt damage on a damage roll from 5-9.

although... layered on top of flexible armor, say light-scale of DR 3, or reinforced leather... a DR 2 would effectively offer 5 points of flexible armor overall and still be submitted to blunt trauma.

On the low-end, Tough Skin is rather cheap, I agree. It's usefulness is not linear, but the pricing is. So we get a weird area, particularly on very low DR where the limitations of Tough Skin don't feature all that often.

It's still less useful than Flexible (-20%) though, because it doesn't protect from poisons, burning, follow-ups, etc... and it's flexibility is still relevant when layered on top of inorganic flexible armor. So it should still be more than -20%.

Since the problem is only on the very low DR range, as on the higher DR range the -40% is clearly a good pricing, then we're arguing a tiny amount of points. Which will hardly imbalance the game. It "fixes" itself at DR 5+, and since I'm sure we'll agree it's less useful than plain Flexible, we might arrive at -30%... which for DR 4 would be less than 8 points of difference... 3 points at DR 2... hardly a problem.

As for Elmental DR, it's quite handy... not only will it defend from direct fire, frost, poison, etc... attacks, it'll also offer reduction of damage to spells that otherwise ignore DR, like Frostbite.

Finally, as to the druid being constantly limited inside Dungeons, some "dungeons" might be natural caverns... a dragon's layer, the subterranean kingdom of whatever, etc...

Last edited by Gudiomen; 02-12-2009 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 02:58 PM   #33
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Aside from a roll vs. Musical Instrument or Singing being needed to use Musical Influence (so you might want at least a 16 to avoid critical failure on a 17):
  • DF 1, p. 20: Bard-Song abilities operate at a level equal to the bard's skill with Musical Instrument or Singing, as applicable, plus his Bardic Talent.
  • DF 2, p. 4: Musical Instrument and Singing can earn a little extra cash for a poor bard.
  • DF 2, p. 11: Musical Instrument and Singing can be used with the Trickery rule (p. 10).
I guess all of those applications would be classed as "subtle" by most players, who are more into smashing stuff in dungeon crawls. But a canny bard could use all of his Bard-Song abilities at a very high level, earn money, and distract some fairly scary foes early on in the campaign, when high skill at many abilities is harder to get, money is scarce, and nobody is buff enough to kill every foe.
How are the Bard powers supposed to work with Trickery?
DF2 says that Captivate, Hypnotism, Musical Influence, Persuade, Suggest, or Sway Emotions can be used as old Bardic mind tricks. But...

Captivate takes 30 mintues of talking before it will take effect, Suggest is 20 minutes, and Sway Emotions is 10 minutes. So, none of those seem like they would be applicable to that moment when you run across the Orc guards and need to do something before a fight happens. And Persuade takes a minute...so that doesn't really seem like it would work either. Hypnotism...that only takes 5 seconds...so seems like it might be more useful if you have five seconds before the fight might start, but only effects one person. Musical Influence, since you'd only have a few seconds, only allow a +/-1 to the Reaction roll...which is doubtful it can do much to shift a hostile group of baddies in a more positive way.

So, when your group of delvers come across a group of bandits in the dungeon and they are about to reach for weapons...how exactly are these Bardic skills supposed to be helpful?

Or, are we adding a completely new, immediate option...that would go something like:

GM: You come across the bandits, Combat starts! They reach for their weapons!
The Bard, shouldn't use Terror here because it has just as good a change of Frightening his allies as well as the Bandit Enemies, since it is not selective, correct? So instead the Bard says:
Bard: Um...I try Trickery using my Musical Influence to try and stun them.
GM: Okay, since your Leader is Arthur the Knight (who has the Leadership skill), it is his IQ 10 -5 for being on the verge of combat, vs the IQ of the smartest individual bandit, which is their Wizard with an IQ 14. You play your lute, but they ignore you.

This is going to be better than the alternative...which is that the Bard would have to try and get their attention for 20 minutes. Though...it seems that it would generally not be successful.

Am I missing something about Trickery?
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:39 PM   #34
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

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Wizards have a lot more spells than Druids; Clerics have a limited list, but they can HEAL.
Druids can cast Plant Form Other and Heal Plant, which is actually more efficient than the Healing spells for more than eight points of damage, and isn't penalized by multiple daily castings.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:45 PM   #35
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

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Druids can cast Plant Form Other and Heal Plant, which is actually more efficient than the Healing spells for more than eight points of damage, and isn't penalized by multiple daily castings.
Further, Heal Plant appears to include Instant Regeneration, cures diseases, cures poisons, and basically whatever else ails you. The downside is that you're a shrubbery (or giant gourd, or whatever) for the process and it takes quite a bit of time.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:43 PM   #36
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

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Further, Heal Plant appears to include Instant Regeneration, cures diseases, cures poisons, and basically whatever else ails you. The downside is that you're a shrubbery (or giant gourd, or whatever) for the process and it takes quite a bit of time.
Well, Body of Wood is probably the BEST way to take advantage of those spells. Cost isnt that much more than Plant Form, and Heal Plant takes 1 minute, which is the duration of Body of Wood anyway...

I should post an Animal Ally version of an Elk. For "natural animals useful against armed opponents" its really hard to beat shapeshifting into something with two 15 pound strikers on its head. And unlike an Elephant, an Elk (or something pretty much identical) should be familiar to just about any Druid, wherever they come from. Elks are cheaper than Elephants too :) (or Rhinos, or Hippos, which are the other 3 go to forms I would think. All big burly striker wielding herbivores).
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Old 01-26-2013, 06:11 PM   #37
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Further, Heal Plant appears to include Instant Regeneration, cures diseases, cures poisons, and basically whatever else ails you. The downside is that you're a shrubbery (or giant gourd, or whatever) for the process and it takes quite a bit of time.
You can achieve similar effects through Powers: take Regeneration with Nuisance effects such as Sessile, No Fine Manipulators etc. for the duration, and stack on any positive modifiers you might want.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:37 PM   #38
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
You can achieve similar effects through Powers: take Regeneration with Nuisance effects such as Sessile, No Fine Manipulators etc. for the duration, and stack on any positive modifiers you might want.
In DF? How?
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:00 AM   #39
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Default Re: [DF] Bardic power modifier - Singing or Playing? / Usefulness of Druids

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In DF? How?
Okay, not in DF. Sorry. Unsubscribing to avoid further confusion.
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