Thaumatology: Sorcery - Guidelines for Spell Duration

[Nedorus]

Ok, in my other thread (How to implement Melee Attack + QN Roll Affliction) the question came up about how to (correctly? best?) set the duration of newly created spells.

This is not so much about what the different durations mean and what rule-mechanics follow from them.

This is about how to arrive at a good (rules conforming) way to gauge the duration of a spell newly created.

To further clarify:

Instant:

• the effect of an ability is instantaneous (e.g. gives a piece of information from detect)
• the effect makes an immediate and permanent change in the world (e.g. damage from an innate attack; igniting a fire)

Fixed:

• the underlying ability lasts for a given time i.e. specifies how long the effect is. (e.g. Mind Control states "Your control persists for as long as you take uninterrupted Concentrate maneuvers.", However the Modifier Conditioning moves this to "days is equal to your margin of victory" and a further Fixed Duration modifier makes this "three days" for the Relieve Madness spell.
• If I wanted a true mind control to fall into this category I could slap on Independent and some extended duration like x30 to make to "Duration: 30 seconds"

So far I think it's quite clear and well. Where I struggle is Indefinite and Permanent duration.

I look at the Complex Illusion (T:SOR18). It's based on Powers Illusion which states:

Originally Posted by P94

These persist for as long as you concentrate.

and adds the Independence modifier to it. This doesn't say anything about duration, different time etc. But it says:

Originally Posted by P95

You don’t need to concentrate

and

Originally Posted by P95

you can hand off control to your subconscious

From this I conclude that such an Illusion (by RAW) becomes permanent (or rather until I lose my subconsciousness (=death or maybe coma)).
How does the author arrive at Duration: Indefinite?
Why is it not Duration: Permanent?
Or maybe Duration: Permanent until Caster dies? (there are examples like this in the T:SOR e.g. Delayed Message T:SOR24)

So what are the rules / guidelines / best practices to choose the duration of new spells which are Permanent or Indefinite?

I started wondering while I was checking my already created spells and stumbled over:
Clairaudience
Keywords: Information(?)
Full Cost: 18
Casting Roll: QN (I base everything on Quintessence)
Range: 10m (yard)
Duration: ???
Clairsentience (Clairaudience [-30%], Fixed Range [-5%], Costs Fatigue [-5%]*, Sorcery [-15%], Requires QN Roll [-10%]) [18]

As Clairsentience doesn't have any time limitation built in, this would be permanent? indefinite?

Which modifiers would I have to add to

• make this indefinite?
• make it permanent?
• make it fixed?

I guess instantaneous doesn't make any sense here (pun intended)...

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Nedorus]

Another Example where I need clarification:

Combat Sense
Keywords: Buff (?)
Full Cost: 18
Casting Roll: QN
Range: Touch
Duration: Fixed 1min / Indefinite?

Affliction 1 (Gives Combat Reflexes [+150%], Costs Fatigue [-5%], Requires QN Roll, Sorcery [-15%], Melee Attack C, No Parry [-35%], Fixed Duration [+0%], Reduced Duration 1/3 [-10%]) [18]

So this should make a touch based (Melee) attack which gives Combat Reflexes to the subject.
Since it's built on an affliction the "Advantages that can be switched on and off" are automatically “on” for one minute per margin of failure the Fixed Duration modifier should make this 3mins while the Reduced Duration modifier cuts this down to one minute. Does this now make it "Indefinite" and thus maintainable or "fixed duration one minute"?

Maybe I'm overthinking this but I'm really at a loss here ...

[Nedorus]

After some sparring with @mlangsdorf (quick shoutout! Thanks for the help!) in the other thread I think I have come to a satisfying solution for this. I'm typing this down to (maybe) help others - who also struggle with this - follow my learning curve...

First we need to distinguish between two basic cases.
I) the spell is NOT based on an affliction
II) the spell is based in an affliction

The first are abilities that can only be used by the caster. Healing (T:SOR17) is a good example of this. Even though the ability may affect others, it's the caster that has the ability.

The second transfers an ability upon a target. This could be the caster as well (afflicting himself), but more often it's someone else.

I will highlight each possibility in turn and explain how I arrived at the duration for each individual case.

I. Spell is NOT based on an affliction

Again we need to discern different options. The ability:

a) Is a lasting effects (switchable or not) => Duration: Indefinite
In this case the key point is that

Originally Posted by T:SOR13 Inventing New Spells states

the spell now costs 1 FP to cast

and further

Originally Posted by B111

For advantages that produce continuing effects [...] you must pay this FP cost to activate the ability for one minute

This limits the ability to one minute except when upkeep of 1FP is paid.
=> Duration: Indefinite!

b) Lasts for a different but specific time
This one is easy, really. If the ability lasts for some fixed time (e.g. one minute, or is instantaneous) this is "one use" and the Costs Fatigue modifier doesn't change that. Pay, fire and forget!

=> Duration: Instantaneous

=> Duration: Fixed

II. Spell IS based on an affliction
Costs Fatigue doesn't change anything here, as it's the affliction that costs FP, and that is instantaneous.

We need to discern four cases. If the afflicted ability:

a) Is instantaneous

Originally Posted by B36

Advantages with instantaneous effects affect the target once

I think this is one of the easy ones.
=> Duration: Instantaneous

b) Is an Advantage that can be switched on and off

Originally Posted by B36

Advantages that can be switched on and off (such as Insubstantiality) are automatically “on” for one minute per point by which the victim fails his HT roll

First of all this sets the time to one minute per that targets MoF. This is further modified in all examples by Fixed Duration and some form of Extended Duration. However the caster cannot extend this in any way.
=> Duration: Fixed

A good example would be No-Smell T:SOR13 as it's based on Obscure which can be switched on/off.

c) Is a Disadvantage or negates an Advantage
Both of these variants are explicitly mentioned in B36 to "last for one minute per" MoF.

This makes Disadvantages and negating Advantages the same as the above case (b).

=> Duration: Fixed

Good examples would be Disintegrate or Lesser Geas

d) Is "always on" Advantage
This is a bit more difficult, as affliction doesn't mention this kind of ability and I couldn't find any examples in T:SOR.

=> Duration: Permanent


e) Lasts some different but specific time
This is also not mentioned by the affliction rules and I couldn't find any examples in T:SOR.

=> Duration: Fixed

I'm still very unsure about these last two. There are no examples of these cases in T:SOR. All examples of the durations (permanent and fixed) have explicit modifiers on the underlying ability to take them from minutes per MoF to either a longer time or to permanent. This is done by slapping on Fixed Duration and some form of Extended Duration.
It seems, the author assumes that "always on" advantages are treated the same as "switchable" Advantages (B36). I would agree that this makes everything very consistent. But is it RAW?

[mlangsdorf]

Clairaudience: the base advantage is always available. The Sorcery version adds Costs 1 FP from the Sorcery power modifier, so it has a maintenance cost of 1 FP per minute and an indefinite duration. Your version adds another Costs 1 FP, so it actually takes 2 FP per minute.

Afflictions normally last for minute per margin of success on the resistance roll. Sorcery complicates this by using Extended or Reduced Duration and Fixed Duration, so now the affliction lasts for 3 minutes or 30 seconds or 30 minutes or whatever.

Your version of Combat Senses afflicts Combat Reflexes for 1 minute. Duration is fixed, so margin of success is always 3, and duration is reduced to 1/3rd of normal. So 20 seconds per margin, for 3 margins, for a total of 1 minute. It isn't maintainable but you could re-afflict the target if they're nearby and you can spare the action.

[Nedorus]

Yes, that's how I understand it now as well.
As per my analysis above, I think, that RAW it's impossible to arrive at "Duration: Indefinite" with any spell that is based on Affliction. Though the rules are not very specific on the exact mechanism on how to arrive at specific durations (hence my confusion).

Having said that, allowing a spell this with "Fixed Duration [+0%], Reduced Duration 1/3 [-10%]" to have Indefinite duration and thus being maintainable wouldn't break anything I guess. "Duration: Fixed 1 minute" could really be treated like "Duration: Indefinite" ...

[mlangsdorf]

The most rules compliant way to have an indefinite duration Affliction is probably:
Affliction (Extended Duration: Permanent +150%) [25] with the conditional ending of the permanency being "whenever the afflictor goes a minute without spending 1 FP to continue the affliction."

Messing around with Fixed Duration doesn't change the fact that the affliction is going to end at some point and cannot be renewed. It can only be reapplied by taking a new Concentrate maneuver and winning the Resistance contest (after hitting the target, if necessary). Making the duration into conditionally permanent gets around that problem: the affliction continues forever, but has a very generous ending condition.

[Nedorus]

Yes, I find this interesting. I just (15mins abo) got Sorcery: Sound Spells written by ALEKSEI ISACHENKO. This gives me A LOT of additional material / examples for sorcery spells. Adding in his blog Generic Universal Eggplant: Sorcery: Spell Index I suddenly have a treasure trove of examples to work with. It looks like Aleksei literally translates every GURPS Magic spell into a sorcery version.

I couldn't find a single example where a spell based on an affliction would be Duration: Indefinite so I'm moving away from that idea.

I like your thinking though with Permanent [+150%] + Limitation "unless FP are spent"...