RPM question

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by nudj

I've been thinking of using RPM in a fantasy game. Looking at GURPS Thaumotology RPM, i see that Fireball is a greater create energy effect and costs 6 points per +1d. I also see that lesser destroy body causes damage at 2 points per +1d if the tech in the setting allows that level of damage from a hand held or ranged weapon.

That's a big difference in cost. Can I apply the setting rule to a fireball? Even in a TL 3 game, 12 fatigue for a 2d fireball seems ridiculous.

Thanks

nudj

A few important things to note, here. Fireball does External Damage, meaning you're looking at 3d damage without any energy invested in Damage and +3 damage per +1 to base energy, but have to deal with DR (External Damage is reduced by DR and requires you to basically throw the projectile at the foe, but does triple damage). A Lesser Destroy Body is going to be Internal Damage, meaning you're looking at a base of 1d damage, and +1 to damage per +1 to base energy (+4 energy per +1d, I have no idea where you're getting +2 energy per +1d from). With the Greater Effect multiplier, you wind up looking at the same energy costs to increase damage for a Greater Effect that does external damage as a Lesser Effect that causes internal damage - +3 energy per +3 to damage (personally, while it isn't in the RAW, I would allow for fractional base energy boosts for external damage - at +1 damage per +1/3 energy - which with a single Greater Effect will mean simply +1 total energy per +1 damage).

That 3d base fireball winds up calling for 18 energy - Create Energy has a base cost of 6, and the Greater Effects multiplier for 1 greater effect is x3. If 3d internal damage can be caused with a Lesser Destroy Body in your setting, that would be Lesser Destroy Body (5) + Damage, Internal Toxic 3d (8, for +2d damage) + Subject Weight, 300 lb (3), for a total of 16 energy - which turns out to be right around the same ballpark as that fireball.

Generally speaking, gathering energy for a ritual during combat isn't really an option with baseline RPM (the Effect Shaping variant from Pyramid #3/66 is a potential exception; I believe it was also the basis of Incantation Magic for Dungeon Fantasy). Instead, mages who are expecting trouble will typically have some Conditional Rituals and/or Charms prepared to handle it for them - rather than gathering up something like 46 energy to create a 10d fireball, you create a Conditional Ritual, gathering the energy ahead of time and setting an appropriate trigger - "When I extend the index finger of my right hand and say 'Ignius!', activate this spell." Or you create a Charm by binding the Conditional Ritual to some object, to activate when you manipulate it in some way (traditionally by snapping it in half, but there are other options). Conditional Rituals do cost a bit more, as they add on Lesser Control Magic (which also means you need Path of Magic at a level that matches your main Path/Paths to get full use out of it/them), but being able to deploy them more-or-less instantly is a huge boon. For example, an adept with an impressive Path of Energy 20 would take around 25 to 30 seconds (rolling 5 or 6 times) on average to gather the 46 energy necessary to cast that 10d fireball. If the character instead took half an hour or so to create a Charm ahead of time (and had comparable Path of Magic skill), he or she would have an item that would let the character cast the spell instantly so long as it was in the hand (and Fast Draw (Charm) can make it fast indeed to get it into one's hand).

[nudj]

Originally Posted by Varyon

A few important things to note, here. Fireball does External Damage, meaning you're looking at 3d damage without any energy invested in Damage and +3 damage per +1 to base energy, but have to deal with DR (External Damage is reduced by DR and requires you to basically throw the projectile at the foe, but does triple damage). A Lesser Destroy Body is going to be Internal Damage, meaning you're looking at a base of 1d damage, and +1 to damage per +1 to base energy (+4 energy per +1d, I have no idea where you're getting +2 energy per +1d from). With the Greater Effect multiplier, you wind up looking at the same energy costs to increase damage for a Greater Effect that does external damage as a Lesser Effect that causes internal damage - +3 energy per +3 to damage (personally, while it isn't in the RAW, I would allow for fractional base energy boosts for external damage - at +1 damage per +1/3 energy - which with a single Greater Effect will mean simply +1 total energy per +1 damage).

That 3d base fireball winds up calling for 18 energy - Create Energy has a base cost of 6, and the Greater Effects multiplier for 1 greater effect is x3. If 3d internal damage can be caused with a Lesser Destroy Body in your setting, that would be Lesser Destroy Body (5) + Damage, Internal Toxic 3d (8, for +2d damage) + Subject Weight, 300 lb (3), for a total of 16 energy - which turns out to be right around the same ballpark as that fireball.

Generally speaking, gathering energy for a ritual during combat isn't really an option with baseline RPM (the Effect Shaping variant from Pyramid #3/66 is a potential exception; I believe it was also the basis of Incantation Magic for Dungeon Fantasy). Instead, mages who are expecting trouble will typically have some Conditional Rituals and/or Charms prepared to handle it for them - rather than gathering up something like 46 energy to create a 10d fireball, you create a Conditional Ritual, gathering the energy ahead of time and setting an appropriate trigger - "When I extend the index finger of my right hand and say 'Ignius!', activate this spell." Or you create a Charm by binding the Conditional Ritual to some object, to activate when you manipulate it in some way (traditionally by snapping it in half, but there are other options). Conditional Rituals do cost a bit more, as they add on Lesser Control Magic (which also means you need Path of Magic at a level that matches your main Path/Paths to get full use out of it/them), but being able to deploy them more-or-less instantly is a huge boon. For example, an adept with an impressive Path of Energy 20 would take around 25 to 30 seconds (rolling 5 or 6 times) on average to gather the 46 energy necessary to cast that 10d fireball. If the character instead took half an hour or so to create a Charm ahead of time (and had comparable Path of Magic skill), he or she would have an item that would let the character cast the spell instantly so long as it was in the hand (and Fast Draw (Charm) can make it fast indeed to get it into one's hand).

Thanks, I missed the external vs internal damage thing.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by nudj

Thanks, I missed the external vs internal damage thing.

RPM has a lot of moving parts, so it's easy to miss things. Read through the example rituals in the book and make certain you understand how they are built, referencing the rules for designing rituals earlier in the book if necessary, to help familiarize yourself with the system. Designing your own rituals will be helpful as well, of course. If anything doesn't make sense, feel free to ask about it here - quite a few forumites are rather knowledgeable about the system, and quite willing to help (while the original RPM author doesn't really post here anymore, Christopher R Rice is basically the Patron Saint of RPM and has written quite a bit of official material for it... and many the rest of us aren't horrible with it either).

This thread may also be of use to you; I'm largely going off of memory, but I believe there are not only some juicy example rituals for you to dissect, but also quite a bit of discussion about the process of designing them.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by nudj

So is that a default assumption in RPM? That you are not doing things spontaneously in battle?

Yes, this is indeed a default assumption for RPM. RPM is supposed to be ritualistic, not a Harry Potter type of magic that has a magic effect with just a short word and a simple gesture. That doesnt mean that it's impossible to use in battle, just that it is really hard to do the more "flashy" effects in the heat of battle, but minor ones are still a possibility.

RPM however has conditional magics and Charms exactly for that purpose. Just make a "Wand of Fireball" with a few charges, just in case you need it.

RPM is a fascinating system, in one hand it is perhaps the most open ended I've ever seen, truly allowing you to really feel what a "Mage" means, with basically every possibility imaginable open to the caster.

In the other hand, you have to think carefully what it is that you want and what you might need when your need is the greatest.

Suppose the level of skill you have allows for 10 conditionals or charms. What do you do with those? Do you set 3 slots for fireballs, 1 for a "magic shield" and 6 healings? Well, that seems a good pick - 3 sources of ways to put the hurt on foes, 1 way to protect yourself or someone, and 6 "doses" of medicine, just in case.

But what if you enter in a dungeon filled with incorporeal undead? In that case, it would've been better to have stocked a few "Exorcism" spells, but you had no way to know it beforehand.

Therefore, RPM can do anything - like a true mage from fantasy stories do - but cant exactly always be prepared and capable of solving every single problem with just a few Abracadrabas.

And this is a kind of magic that requires the players to think tactifully.

[Christopher R. Rice]

If you take Adept it changes from ritualistic to on the spot.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by nudj

So is that a default assumption in RPM? That you are not doing things spontaneously in battle?

Yes. (Though it's possible to build adepts that might sling magic in battle.)

RPM was originally designed for the Monster Hunters line, urban fantasy of the sort which normally presumes a wainscot / secret magic setting, and often in the modern day where there's not evidently a lot of magic around (from my mundane point of view). Magic is ritualistic, a relatively drawn-out process of pouring through the grimoire and going through the motions to "gather energy". MH also assumes preparation is important to the success of the hunters -- researching to figure out what they're up against, learning its weaknesses, scouting its habits, lair, and minions, and for the mages, creating charms for spells they're likely to need, not just doing everything off the cuff, charging into the next dungeon room because the PCs are supposed to win, right? Well, not the unprepared PCs, at least not in MH.

The Greater / Lesser Effect distinction is there also to help give the mechanics that feel of a secret magic setting. Think Mage: the Ascension rather than D&D. Magic with big flashy effects that are really improbable in the setting are Greater, with the meta goal of discouraging their use in favor of magic that's more subtle, easier for the mundanes to overlook or confuse as some rational effect.

If that's not the feel of the setting you want for a game, but you do want mages slinging fireballs and calling lightning, teleporting about the battlefield, then you might make Ritual Adept cheaper or otherwise speed up energy gathering, and you might rarely or never have Greater Effects in that setting. You might also need to ponder what limits mages do have in the setting, so other archetypes aren't at best redundant.

[nudj]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Yes. (Though it's possible to build adepts that might sling magic in battle.)

RPM was originally designed for the Monster Hunters line, urban fantasy of the sort which normally presumes a wainscot / secret magic setting, and often in the modern day where there's not evidently a lot of magic around (from my mundane point of view). Magic is ritualistic, a relatively drawn-out process of pouring through the grimoire and going through the motions to "gather energy". MH also assumes preparation is important to the success of the hunters -- researching to figure out what they're up against, learning its weaknesses, scouting its habits, lair, and minions, and for the mages, creating charms for spells they're likely to need, not just doing everything off the cuff, charging into the next dungeon room because the PCs are supposed to win, right? Well, not the unprepared PCs, at least not in MH.

The Greater / Lesser Effect distinction is there also to help give the mechanics that feel of a secret magic setting. Think Mage: the Ascension rather than D&D. Magic with big flashy effects that are really improbable in the setting are Greater, with the meta goal of discouraging their use in favor of magic that's more subtle, easier for the mundanes to overlook or confuse as some rational effect.

If that's not the feel of the setting you want for a game, but you do want mages slinging fireballs and calling lightning, teleporting about the battlefield, then you might make Ritual Adept cheaper or otherwise speed up energy gathering, and you might rarely or never have Greater Effects in that setting. You might also need to ponder what limits mages do have in the setting, so other archetypes aren't at best redundant.

I was looking for something that gave flexible rules for creating "any" magic spell someone could come up with (unlike GURPS Magic) but wasn't as complex and prescriptive as powers and stunts. It sounds like if I want more spontaneity, I need to really think about what is a greater effect in my game. I'm not sure loading up on charms or conditional spells is what I want (sounds like "fire and forget"). Ritual Adept is clear, but maybe high levels of Magery/Thaumatology/Path skills would be enough (it's a high point game with goons and bosses).

Thanks for all the advice guys!

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by nudj

I'm not sure loading up on charms or conditional spells is what I want (sounds like "fire and forget").

Its more like carrying around potions

[dcarson]

Anyone that is a adept should have 15-20 points of internal energy. They have to do gather energy rolls to refill it but they can power one or more minor rituals off of that. So if you really need a fireball because is what will kill it you can do one, but only one.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by nudj

I was looking for something that gave flexible rules for creating "any" magic spell someone could come up with (unlike GURPS Magic) but wasn't as complex and prescriptive as powers and stunts. It sounds like if I want more spontaneity, I need to really think about what is a greater effect in my game. I'm not sure loading up on charms or conditional spells is what I want (sounds like "fire and forget"). Ritual Adept is clear, but maybe high levels of Magery/Thaumatology/Path skills would be enough (it's a high point game with goons and bosses).

Thanks for all the advice guys!

Charms/Conditional Spells function somewhat like the prepared spells of Vancian-style magic - you prepare some number of spells during downtime, then can unleash them during adventuring. On-the-spot casting is more for out-of-combat casting - interrogating a prisoner, setting magical traps, disarming other traps, buffing yourself and your allies, healing wounds, etc. An Adept can gather and cast during combat, but it's pretty tough as you're either taking 5 seconds per gathering attempt (in many GURPS combats, this may mean the fight is over before you finish your first attempt) or taking a sizable penalty to gather more quickly (I think there may be official Techniques that will let you offset/negate the haste penalty, however). You can augment this with an Energy Reserve (which you get 3 points of with each level of Magery), Decanic/Traditional Trappings, etc, but even so, using just the right spell without preparation is rather difficult... as it should be, as otherwise you risk turning your ability to use magic into an "I Win" button.