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Old 04-22-2022, 07:36 AM   #31
Cheeseball
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
GURPS Intelligence and real-world Intelligence Quotient, despite using the same abbreviation, have some serious distinctions between each other (and, arguably, real-world IQ is more akin to a "Born Academic" Talent than a measure of raw intelligence, considering how it's determined).
No, no, no, now I am not discussing about differences in the use of the term, but in the consequences of high Intelligence. With the description given by the game system to IQ.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
That said, your two quotes rather strongly contradict each other, unless there's specific nuances you've opted to leave out - the first gives 4-5x learning speed for IQ 126+ (roughly +2 Standard Deviations, which many people correlate to GURPS IQ 12), while the second gives 3x learning speed for IQ 140+ (roughly +3 Standard Deviations, or IQ 13) and 6x learning speed for IQ 160+ (roughly +4 Standard Deviations, or IQ 14).
No, what is contradictory is the article presented by another forum member. The 126-140 range can fit in GURPS IQ 12, which is about 4x learning speed, but the important thing is that the difference is very significant even with small SDs of around 2. And although 160 could be +4SD, at +3SD the learning capacity is x8, a number close enough to x6.
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Old 04-22-2022, 07:43 AM   #32
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

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This is exactly what I'm talking about, the average player doesn't know how important intelligence is in learning.
Insufficient attention to precise use of terminology can lead to statements that have no contextual meaning. Persons may or may not know how important "intelligence" is to learning, but that has virtually no relevance to them as players of GURPS. GURPS rules do not operationalize "intelligence" and GURPS learning through study rules are optional abstractions. One of the traits that may affect the results of using those rules is IQ, which is defined in its own game terms not identical with the RW concept of "intelligence".

Mixing the issues of (a) how GURPS works internally with (b) whether GURPS rules are realistic is usually an unfruitful effort.
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Old 04-22-2022, 07:54 AM   #33
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

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Insufficient attention to precise use of terminology can lead to statements that have no contextual meaning. Persons may or may not know how important "intelligence" is to learning, but that has virtually no relevance to them as players of GURPS. GURPS rules do not operationalize "intelligence" and GURPS learning through study rules are optional abstractions. One of the traits that may affect the results of using those rules is IQ, which is defined in its own game terms not identical with the RW concept of "intelligence".

Mixing the issues of (a) how GURPS works internally with (b) whether GURPS rules are realistic is usually an unfruitful effort.
This is what I'm trying to say, the game works perfectly. The GURPS rules are adequate to represent this aspect of human reality, but I think a lot of players don't understand what they're doing when they create a character with IQ 14, or 15 (much less with an IQ of 20).
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Old 04-22-2022, 08:23 AM   #34
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

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Originally Posted by Cheeseball View Post
This is what I'm trying to say, the game works perfectly. The GURPS rules are adequate to represent this aspect of human reality, but I think a lot of players don't understand what they're doing when they create a character with IQ 14, or 15 (much less with an IQ of 20).
The game's authors, and a lot of people who've been playing and customising it for decades, do not agree with you. GURPS does a few neat tricks with numbers, and does a better job of representing real people than many RPGs, but mistaking it for a semi-accurate representation of human beings is foolish.

Doing so for the visible purpose of trying to justify Mary Sue NPCs is doubly foolish, and very reminiscent of a previous poster who did much the same and was eventually banned because they weren't interested in discussion, but were simply trying to validate their ideas. Are you Alonsua?
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Old 04-22-2022, 08:34 AM   #35
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

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Originally Posted by Cheeseball View Post
This is what I'm trying to say, the game works perfectly. The GURPS rules are adequate to represent this aspect of human reality, but I think a lot of players don't understand what they're doing when they create a character with IQ 14, or 15 (much less with an IQ of 20).
No, Alonsua, we are saying different things.

I am saying (I thought quite clearly) that GURPS rules do not attempt or purport to represent "intelligence" in the RW and that accordingly it is meaningless to discuss whether players understand any given RW concept of "intelligence".
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Old 04-22-2022, 08:39 AM   #36
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

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The game's authors, and a lot of people who've been playing and customising it for decades, do not agree with you. GURPS does a few neat tricks with numbers, and does a better job of representing real people than many RPGs, but mistaking it for a semi-accurate representation of human beings is foolish.

Doing so for the visible purpose of trying to justify Mary Sue NPCs is doubly foolish, and very reminiscent of a previous poster who did much the same and was eventually banned because they weren't interested in discussion, but were simply trying to validate their ideas. Are you Alonsua?
That's not my name but well, at least in this IQ attribute they have done pretty good. What I don't understand is where do you get that I try to justify any character, what's more, what caught my attention in the 3rd edition was the change in languages, from skills to advantage. And I have also seen some tables (from 3rd to 4th) that give a reference of the character's body mass in relation to his ST attribute.

If you're talking about the other question, also I'm not sure if the assigned scores in Spec Ops are totally realistic, because there is another book about martial arts that gives commandos scores of 11 to 12 in attributes, and another on Navy SEALs that gives them a maximum of 13 in IQ and DX. And precisely what I am trying to emphasize in this question is that the players are not aware that even an IQ of 12, or 13, can represent a very gifted character.
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Old 04-22-2022, 08:46 AM   #37
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

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...what I am trying to emphasize in this question is that the players are not aware that even an IQ of 12, or 13, can represent a very gifted character.
Players can find a clear description of the meaning of attribute levels in the box on page B14.
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Old 04-22-2022, 08:48 AM   #38
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

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No, no, no, now I am not discussing about differences in the use of the term, but in the consequences of high Intelligence. With the description given by the game system to IQ.
You're correlating GURPS Intelligence to Real World Intelligence Quotient, and they aren't quite the same thing. I don't care if you don't want to discuss if they're the same or not, the fact you're treating them as equivalent makes the differences relevant.

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Originally Posted by Cheeseball View Post
No, what is contradictory is the article presented by another forum member. The 126-140 range can fit in GURPS IQ 12, which is about 4x learning speed, but the important thing is that the difference is very significant even with small SDs of around 2. And although 160 could be +4SD, at +3SD the learning capacity is x8, a number close enough to x6.
The article said there was a weak correlation between intelligence and language learning, and so everyone else in the thread (alongside the authors of the article) has determined that intelligence isn't really a defining factor here - particularly not to the extent we'd see if making each language an IQ-based skill. Consider that lead is a poison, but most people who die from gunshot wounds die because of the acute physical trauma, not the poisoning. Thus, lead's poisonous nature is at best a weak influence on the mortality of gunshot wounds. You are essentially declaring that any gunshot wound to any part of the person should be instantly and unavoidably terminal, because of lead poisoning.

As for the contradiction in the quotes, the first said that IQ 126 gave a 4-5x boost to learning speed, while the second said IQ 140 gave only a 3x boost. Do you not see the issue there? You're going from normal speed at IQ 10, to ~4.5x speed at IQ 12, to 3x speed at IQ 13, to 6x speed at IQ 14. That's a roller coaster, not a clear progression.
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Old 04-22-2022, 08:50 AM   #39
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

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No, Alonsua, we are saying different things.
Watching, mostly, but I had the same thought.
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Old 04-22-2022, 08:59 AM   #40
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Default Re: Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

For what it's worth - I believe one main reason for the "skill to advantage" change between 3rd and 4th, is to try to fix the issue where a person with IQ 15 and a point in a language (giving Skill-15), has the same relative skill level as a native of IQ 10 who has several points in the same language (to get to skill-15).

On the other hand, this whole thing reminds me of the Monty Python "Argument Sketch"...
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