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Old 06-08-2021, 12:12 PM   #1
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

This recent thread on Flashbangs/Stun Grenades has gotten me thinking about the rules for said devices, specifically this part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GURPS - High Tech
A Vision- and Hearing-Based affliction that affects a 10-yard radius. The Protected Hearing and Protected Vision advantages (or equivalent; e.g., hearing protection and dark goggles) each give +5 to the HT roll. Failure to resist means you’re stunned; roll against HT-5 to recover each turn. Also creates smoke in the area of effect.
HT -5 is pretty steep, especially since it's a static roll you have to make every turn (until you succeed).

For a HT10 NPC, that's what...a 5% chance to succeed? In my personal RL experience, normal folks usually recover from the effects of Flashbangs sometime around the 6 second mark, give or take.

When PCs have used them in action games, rarely do the NPCs ever pass the HT -5 roll, and the PCs end up being able to act with impunity for way longer than they should.

Has anyone out there had the same experience? Do any of you GMs have special house rules for stun grenades? Do your players ever even employ them?
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Old 06-08-2021, 12:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
This recent thread on Flashbangs/Stun Grenades has gotten me thinking about the rules for said devices, specifically this part:



HT -5 is pretty steep, especially since it's a static roll you have to make every turn (until you succeed).

For a HT10 NPC, that's what...a 5% chance to succeed? In my personal RL experience, normal folks usually recover from the effects of Flashbangs sometime around the 6 second mark, give or take.

When PCs have used them in action games, rarely do the NPCs ever pass the HT -5 roll, and the PCs end up being able to act with impunity for way longer than they should.

Has anyone out there had the same experience? Do any of you GMs have special house rules for stun grenades? Do your players ever even employ them?
Can you elaborate on your personal experience? The ones I've had experience with caused a huge blind spot to develop in your vision, and burst both of your eardrums if you were in a room with it and dared to look towards it.

To be honest the only issue with Stun Grenade that I see is that it has zero crushing explosive damage, so it cannot take advantage of High-Tech's optional rules for explosions in interiors. Stingballs are superior in that regard, because they come with effects of flashbang AND release shrapnel AND cause cr ex damage.
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Old 06-08-2021, 01:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Can you elaborate on your personal experience? The ones I've had experience with caused a huge blind spot to develop in your vision, and burst both of your eardrums if you were in a room with it and dared to look towards it.
US Army Joint Readiness Training Center, Ft Polk. Both as part of a unit doing MOUT qual, and later as OPFOR stationed there. Never had one dropped in my lap, but I've been in the same room/corridor within 5 meters or so. It's a damned awful experience, but not one that makes you non-functional for dozens of seconds.

FWIW, I wasn't complaining about the mechanical potency, just that it normally will take a $hit-ton of rolls for a HT 10 person to succeed on a HT-5 roll.

For $hits and giggles, I just did some test rolls for 4 HT 10 NPCs.

Here's how many rolls/seconds it took for them to recover from the standard Stun Grenade in High Tech:

1st NPC: 15 rolls/seconds
2nd NPC: 21 rolls/seconds
3rd NPC: 48 rolls/seconds
4th NPC: 07 rolls/seconds

I get that data is anecdotal, but it pretty much mimics the experiences I have had in actual games. NPCs that get flashbanged are DONE unless they have one or more of the following:

  • Good quality Eye/Ear protective equipment
  • Robust Hearing/Vision Perks
  • HPT/Protected Hearing/Vision/other such Advantages
  • High HT Attribute (13+)
  • Heaps of luck and/or Luck

Quote:
To be honest the only issue with Stun Grenade that I see is that it has zero crushing explosive damage, so it cannot take advantage of High-Tech's optional rules for explosions in interiors. Stingballs are superior in that regard, because they come with effects of flashbang AND release shrapnel AND cause cr ex damage.
That's fair. Being near one is like someone hitting your chest with a sledge hammer.
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Old 06-08-2021, 01:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

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Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
U
FWIW, I wasn't complaining about the mechanical potency, just that it normally will take a $hit-ton of rolls for a HT 10 person to succeed on a HT-5 roll.

r.
Just as technicallity most soldiers will have Fit and the +1 to HT-based rolls in that AD counts for this case.
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Old 06-08-2021, 02:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
US Army Joint Readiness Training Center, Ft Polk. Both as part of a unit doing MOUT qual, and later as OPFOR stationed there. Never had one dropped in my lap, but I've been in the same room/corridor within 5 meters or so. It's a damned awful experience, but not one that makes you non-functional for dozens of seconds.

FWIW, I wasn't complaining about the mechanical potency, just that it normally will take a $hit-ton of rolls for a HT 10 person to succeed on a HT-5 roll.

For $hits and giggles, I just did some test rolls for 4 HT 10 NPCs.

Here's how many rolls/seconds it took for them to recover from the standard Stun Grenade in High Tech:

1st NPC: 15 rolls/seconds
2nd NPC: 21 rolls/seconds
3rd NPC: 48 rolls/seconds
4th NPC: 07 rolls/seconds

I get that data is anecdotal, but it pretty much mimics the experiences I have had in actual games. NPCs that get flashbanged are DONE unless they have one or more of the following:

  • Good quality Eye/Ear protective equipment
  • Robust Hearing/Vision Perks
  • HPT/Protected Hearing/Vision/other such Advantages
  • High HT Attribute (13+)
  • Heaps of luck and/or Luck



That's fair. Being near one is like someone hitting your chest with a sledge hammer.
I worked with Zarya-1s, and it took at least 30 seconds for the vision to clear sufficiently, and the ringing and deafness could remain for hours. The 'stun' caused by the explosion/inner ear effects also took a minute to shake off.

Taking NPCs more than 10 seconds to un-stun is the intended behavior. It's a device meant for that. Considering it takes a long time to bring the grenade into play, and then capitalize on it's effects, it's more than fair from game perspective.
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Old 06-08-2021, 02:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

With effective HT 5, the chance to recover within 6 seconds is around 25%. This jumps to 44% for HT 6, 65% for HT 7, 83% for HT 8, 94% for HT 9, and 98% for HT 10.

An active-duty soldier is likely to have effective HT 11 or 12 prior to the penalty (as noted, the bonus from Fit applies). So, leaving things as-is (HT-5 to recover), that means around a 50% chance to recover within 6 seconds. Change the penalty to recover to -4, that jumps to somewhere around 70%.

An alternative would be a +1 to recover per previous attempt (which I believe recovering from surprise uses). So if it's HT-5 to recover the first second, then HT-4, then HT-3, etc, then an HT 10 character is looking at around an 83% chance to recover within 6 seconds, an HT 11 one is looking at around 93%, and an HT 12 one is looking at around 98%.
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Old 06-08-2021, 02:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

Below HT 10, someone can't finish military training or is medically disqualified before it starts. That means every soldier has HT 10 at minimum, and a significant portion of them will have higher HT, especially those who work out a lot (required for many MOSes) and/or have active hobbies. Finally, anyone who finished military training and continues to qualify for any kind of combat MOS will have at least Fit.

This means that all soldiers have effective HT 11+ and probably a majority of those who train room clearing have 12+.
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Old 06-08-2021, 03:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Below HT 10, someone can't finish military training or is medically disqualified before it starts. That means every soldier has HT 10 at minimum, and a significant portion of them will have higher HT, especially those who work out a lot (required for many MOSes) and/or have active hobbies. Finally, anyone who finished military training and continues to qualify for any kind of combat MOS will have at least Fit.

This means that all soldiers have effective HT 11+ and probably a majority of those who train room clearing have 12+.
That may be true for every peacetime army or a army which can afford to be choosy, like the US for example today.
Most armys who have conscription, may have a lot of people spending time in the army who have to be considered unfit for frontline duty due to bad sight, and a bunch of other lesser medical problems. You can also add low morale since they are forced to serve, and they are often in the rear area or non combat dutys in this armys. Just look at russia here.
It gets even worse if landlocked countrys fight a actual war, than they take everybody who can hold a gun and doesn´t endangers the own side more than the enemy.
But this isn´t the end, if the war takes longer and gets all out, they take everyone who can walk maybe not even that. Here a look at the german Volksturm helps, in the last year of WWII the wehrmacht had a whole division composed of soldiers with severe gastrointestinal problems!
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Old 06-08-2021, 03:20 PM   #9
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
FWIW, I wasn't complaining about the mechanical potency, just that it normally will take a $hit-ton of rolls for a HT 10 person to succeed on a HT-5 roll.

For $hits and giggles, I just did some test rolls for 4 HT 10 NPCs.

Here's how many rolls/seconds it took for them to recover from the standard Stun Grenade in High Tech:

1st NPC: 15 rolls/seconds
2nd NPC: 21 rolls/seconds
3rd NPC: 48 rolls/seconds
4th NPC: 07 rolls/seconds
For what it's worth, things like this that have a 'roll every turn' (or minute, or whatever) save effectively have a half-life. For a roll of 5- such as this grenade gives a HT10 character the half-life it's about 14s.

Against HT11 (or HT10+Fit) it's about 7 seconds/turns. So if you assume HT11/HT10+Fit for a trained and active frontline combatant, you get your 'about six seconds'.

Against HT12, the half-life of the stun is about 4s.

Of course, because it's a half-life effect, there's a long tail (and of course a lucky character can snap out of it immediately, or just not be affected in the first place).

Also, bear in mind that this is against enemies that are not prepared for an attack - if they were they'd have one of both of hearing protection and flash protection, and would thus be far less likely to be affected.
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Old 06-08-2021, 04:46 PM   #10
EskrimadorNC
 
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
I worked with Zarya-1s, and it took at least 30 seconds for the vision to clear sufficiently, and the ringing and deafness could remain for hours. The 'stun' caused by the explosion/inner ear effects also took a minute to shake off.
I don't recall the specific type of banger we trained with, but it was back in the early to mid 90s if that helps any.

If your experience is more recent, that could explain the difference in potency.

BTW, your blog is high-speed. Keep it up.

Quote:
Taking NPCs more than 10 seconds to un-stun is the intended behavior. It's a device meant for that. Considering it takes a long time to bring the grenade into play, and then capitalize on it's effects, it's more than fair from game perspective.
I get it. Maybe it's just my disconnect from RL experience. GURPS lets you do a lot in a 1 second turn, and I have always felt that my Players doing room clearing had time to spare when banging a room of badguys, even after pushing in, taking an AIM maneuver, and putting controlled pairs into vitals. IRL that crap takes time (unless you are CAG/ACE), and I never felt like there was enough time to dilly-dally when room clearing.

Also, in the games I've run, my PCs only really deployed bangers when they had time, and never really while under fire or out in the open. Giving the badguys 3 - 4 seconds of dumping fire on you while you prep a banger never seemed to be a smart play, so they didn't do it.
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