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Old 12-04-2019, 08:34 PM   #21
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

Well, the problem is movement. The amount of rain would turn any soil it moved on into a bog of mud. In addition, a Cat 5 storm surge could take even a MBT out to sea (or, at the very least, drown the engines).
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:09 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Terrorists who operated in a Cat 5 Hurricane would find that nobody who wasn't in the same building would know they were doing so.
They might have different aims to what you're imagining. But in any case, admittedly the call for hurricane-capable hardware comes more from plot-based needs than realism needs. But as putative PCs might get their hands on one, it's useful to know how an extreme-weather transport would work.

For example, I'm imagining that it'd approach to a safe stand-off distance to launch the beartrap anchor cable, maybe 200 metres. The cable could either be
towed by a rocket harpoon or perhaps by a drone sled that engages with the beartrap, before the docking procedure begins.
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Old 12-05-2019, 02:33 PM   #23
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

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They might have different aims to what you're imagining..
I allowed for the posibility of someone who wasn't really a publicity seeking terrorist.

As to landiing I do not believe cables are particularly useful. Thye allow you to exeryt downforce with mechanical reeling in as well as using gravity and thrust but in the process they can convert up forces into mechanical strain with possible breakage. They also have the potential to convert side forces into down forces and leave your vehicle looking like some chapter of Charlie Brown v. The Kite Eating Tree.

Basically it'd be one more thing that could go wrong.

I'd want a vertical silo with mechanical windbreaks surounding it above ground. You get above this and center as well as you can while you switch all thrust to lateral stabilization and let graviity pull you down. When the windbreaks give you some relief from the winds you neaten up your final approach and after you fall below ground level you neutraize your downward speed.
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:22 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

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They might have different aims to what you're imagining. But in any case, admittedly the call for hurricane-capable hardware comes more from plot-based needs than realism needs.
Bear in mind that this could easily be a situation no-one thought of, so you're dealing with someone inventing a solution for an immediate need.

The obvious terrorist plot for a hurricane station is that the hurricane station is designed to do things like deflect or weaken hurricanes and if programmed correctly can instead deflect a hurricane the wrong way. In which case one solution might be blowing up the station (if the hurricane's default path is damaging enough, the terrorists blow up the station and this becomes moot).

I have seen dumb schemes for suborbital troop transports to get a squad anywhere on earth within an hour (basically putting them inside a missile and launching it). A wet landing version of that might be okay with a hurricane because it's designed to come in hard anyway.
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:11 AM   #25
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

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As to landiing I do not believe cables are particularly useful. Thye allow you to exeryt downforce with mechanical reeling in as well as using gravity and thrust but in the process they can convert up forces into mechanical strain with possible breakage.
I'm not convinced that TL9 cables would be so easily broken. This is the TL with beanstalks and such, and the designers of the system would tend to overengineer things like breaking tolerances.

Quote:
They also have the potential to convert side forces into down forces and leave your vehicle looking like some chapter of Charlie Brown v. The Kite Eating Tree.
But this is why I figured it would have 3 or 4 cables for lateral stability. I guess if there's still a risk of being pancaked then the system could have emergency cable cutters, maybe explosive. Still, with cable reels that have computer-controlled slack and tension adjustments, I think this can mostly be compensated for.

The one thing I'm not sure of is whether the reels should be mounted on the landing craft or the beartrap. If they're on the vehicle, then reeling in can start soon after the anchor has been engaged and the plurality of cables deployed to their long baseline anchor points. However, this puts more weight for the winding motors in the aircraft.

Putting the reels in the beartrap, as in the modern version mentioned above, means a longer amount of time in the air, as the harpoon is shot to the beartrap, and then the set of cables is drawn back up to the vehicle. This also means the vehicle is only attached by one cable for a longer period and at risk of Charlie Browning, but it might be necessary if the required strength for the cables and reels means heavier apparatus.

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I'd want a vertical silo with mechanical windbreaks surounding it above ground. You get above this and center as well as you can while you switch all thrust to lateral stabilization and let graviity pull you down. When the windbreaks give you some relief from the winds you neaten up your final approach and after you fall below ground level you neutraize your downward speed.
I'm not sure I see much difference between aiming for the mouth of your silo under windy conditions and aiming for a landing pad. Generally helicopter pilots don't want walls and things around them when they're trying to land, but that might be less of an issue with vector thrust systems than with wide rotor blades.

I can see that wind baffles that rise up once the aircraft is in the landing funnel could be useful though.

That being said, I'm not committed to either method. I'm entertaining the cable system because Ulzgoroth made a good case for it and it's currently what's used by military for a similar situation, but the free-landing method would be simpler and faster if the aircraft's thrusters are powerful and reactive enough.

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The obvious terrorist plot for a hurricane station is that the hurricane station is designed to do things like deflect or weaken hurricanes and if programmed correctly can instead deflect a hurricane the wrong way. In which case one solution might be blowing up the station (if the hurricane's default path is damaging enough, the terrorists blow up the station and this becomes moot).
Let's just say that I'm saving this line of discussion for a later thread focusing on the hurricane platform itself.
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Last edited by Daigoro; 12-07-2019 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:30 AM   #26
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

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I'm not convinced that TL9 cables would be so easily broken.
Not the cables. The parts the cables are attached to. I'm sure you can build super cables but every other part in the system (and this probably means the whole airframe)has to be built to the same strength requirements (or higher).

More cables are likely to increase the odds of breaking your whole vehicle.

The point to the underground silo is to get out of the wind. The windbreaks are to reduce the wind forces on your vehicle to make it easier to get out of the wind. You don't want to fight the wind any more than you have to. The wind is much bigger than you are.
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:56 AM   #27
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

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As to things being grounded by the storm the list starts with human beings and makes its' way up. I don't know if you could operate a 60 ton+ MBT is an cat 5 hurricane. Nobody has ever tried to my knowledge. Even if you could withstand the winds I don't think you could navigate very well.
Here and here is footage from last year's Typhoon Jebi when it hit Osaka. It was a Cat 5 super typhoon and one of the most destructive in history, with sustained wind speeds of 170 kph and gusts above 200 kph.

There's lots of destruction and scenes of cargo trucks and small passenger cars being blown over, but you also see people (uninformed or crazy) driving or walking around and there's moving traffic in the background. I don't see why an MBT would have serious issues in this, let alone any other kind of armoured military vehicle. Flying debris would be the biggest issue, but the winds wouldn't do more than rock them around on their suspension a bit.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:29 AM   #28
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

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[Typhoon_Jebi_(2018)"]Typhoon Jebi[/URL] when it hit Osaka. It was a Cat 5 super typhoon and one of the most destructive in history, with sustained wind speeds of 170 kph and gusts above 200 kph.

T.
While your link did mention "cat 5 super typhoon equivalent" your quoted wind speeds are only cat 3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saffir...3Simpson_scale

We might be experiencing miles/kilometers confusion. When measured in knh Cat 5 is over 252 kmh rather than 157. 157 is mph.

170 to 200 kmh is only cat 3.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:43 AM   #29
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

I was just going straight off the Wikipedia article. Perhaps the Cat 5 rating is from satellite readings, whereas the listed windspeeds were what was recorded at ground stations which might have dodged the worst winds. Would the typical ground experience be much different, though?

But that is a good point to know for the hurricane platform, which would be situated right at the most intense section.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:39 AM   #30
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Default Re: [Cyberpunk Engineering Challenge] #1 Hurricane Hopper

Also, wind speed is not constant across an entire hurricane. It's physically impossible to walk around in 150 mph winds, the wind force exceeds your weight and ground friction.
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