Allies that are rivals

[Anders]

What if a character has two Allies - and they really don't like each other. They won't work well together and, in fact, each one will spoil the other guys plan if they think it's too good. Is this worth a reduction?

[Figleaf23]

It's definitely worth something, but it may already be accounted for if it is correctly reflected as a Disadvantage (Enemy: Rival) on each Ally's sheet.

[Anders]

Allies are NPCs, so I don't think they can have Enemies.

[Figleaf23]

I think you're thinking about this passage under Allies:

"The point cost for an Ally depends
on his power and frequency of appearance.
Only PCs who take NPCs as
Allies pay points for the privilege. Two
PCs can be mutual “allies” for free, as
can two NPCs – and NPCs never pay
points for PCs as Allies. An Ally is
specifically a skilled NPC associate for
one PC." [B37]

This explicitly states that NPCs don't pay points for PCs as Allies. It doesn't cover NPCs as Allies of NPCs, and I don't know of similar text under Enemies.

Also implicitly I think, coming as it does in the point cost explanations area, that it is meant to refer to whether reciprocal costs should appear on the NPC sheet in an Ally relationship.

I specifically do not think the wording or the purpose of this passage is meant to set broadly different rules for character builds as between PCs and NPCs.

[Anders]

You may be right. I will have to hit the books. And then open them and read them.

[Figleaf23]

Just hope they don't hit back.

[Last Pawn]

As having both Allies have each other as Enemy (Rival) would lower their value, which would in turn lower the value of their rival, which would thus raise their value... Well, things could get bizarrely recursive awfully fast. Besides which, the concern is their cost to the PC, not their cost in relation to each other, and as they suffer a reduced effectiveness I'd think some reduction in cost is valid. The problem being that I can't think of a suitable limitation value. On the other hand, giving them both Odious Personal Habit (Needless Rivalry with X) seems like it might fit the bill, with the reaction penalty serving to represent how much their bickering ticks off everyone else.

[DangerousThing]

Do you really need to cause the GM and the party that much trouble?

Allies are NPCs and the GM has to run them. This could cause extra problems for the GM.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Last Pawn

As having both Allies have each other as Enemy (Rival) would lower their value, which would in turn lower the value of their rival, which would thus raise their value... Well, things could get bizarrely recursive awfully fast. Besides which, the concern is their cost to the PC, not their cost in relation to each other, and as they suffer a reduced effectiveness I'd think some reduction in cost is valid. The problem being that I can't think of a suitable limitation value. On the other hand, giving them both Odious Personal Habit (Needless Rivalry with X) seems like it might fit the bill, with the reaction penalty serving to represent how much their bickering ticks off everyone else.

Exactly. This is one of those inevitable judgement call situations.

The size of the penalty/bonus (depending on how you look at it) should depend on just how rivalrous the rivalry is, and the circumstances of the alliance. Are they rivals who get on each other's nerves, waste time arguing in critical moments, or are they the kind of rivals who just might shoot at each other if somebody really blows a reaction roll? As Allies, they are presumably totally loyal to the PC, but if the PC dares not turn his back on them for fear that A will knife B in the back unsupervised, that's a problem. Potentially a big one.

Likewise, does this alliance tend to come into play when dealing with, say, the local cops or the local city council...or the Mafia or the Gestapo? The worse the situation in which the rivalry might kick in, the lower the cost of the alliance since it's worth less.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Do you really need to cause the GM and the party that much trouble?

Allies are NPCs and the GM has to run them. This could cause extra problems for the GM.

OTOH, it could also give a creative GM plot hooks to work with, too.