Engineer skill nonsenses

[Anaraxes]

So call it "IQ-", if you like that better.

If you want a mnemonic justification, the '!' is probably meant as emphasis on the "intelligence" association of the attribute name, which is to say the skill base. People that like IQ! don't see Will and Per as related to that part, so the ! means "just the intelligence".

The wildcard skill bang was probably meant in the sense of conveying excitement. That cinematic character's skill is so broad it's... Astounding! Amazing! Incredible! Doesn't hurt that wildcard skills tend to be the province of more pulpish sources.

There's not a natural language meaning of '!' simply as a collection (whether of attribute bits or a bunch of skills into one), so it's kind of an arbitrary glyph either way. Much like the GURPS '$', probably just easy on keyboards and typesetters, particularly in the 1980s.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I thought folks had stopped using it years ago because of the confusion the "!" gives with wildcards.

No, after it was demonstrated early in 4e there was little need to discuss the value of IQ vs its' components.

Wildcard skills have never been common enough to have much effect on anything. Beyond Science! and _maybe_ Medicine! they may not be a good idea anyway. Not all ideas can be successfully elaborated upon ad infinitum.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No, after it was demonstrated early in 4e there was little need to discuss the value of IQ vs its' components.

Wildcard skills have never been common enough to have much effect on anything. Beyond Science! and _maybe_ Medicine! they may not be a good idea anyway. Not all ideas can be successfully elaborated upon ad infinitum.

Depends what you are looking for:
*James Bond (movies): Spy!
*Washu Hakubi (most of the 13+ Tenchi continuities): Inventor! and Science!
*Artemus Gordon (The Wild Wild West TV series): Spy!
*Professor Roy Hinkley aka The Professor of Gilligan's Island: Inventor! and Science!
*Some interpretations of Sherlock Holmes (not the canonal version): Detective!
*Alfred Pennyworth (Batman's butler): Servant!
*Doctor Stephen Vincent Strange: Occult!

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

Depends what you are looking for:
*James Bond (movies): Spy!

When you have only Science! it's easily and clearly defined as "Skill in all forms of scientific knowledge".

However even Medicine! begins stretching the defintion to "Skill in all medical activities".

By the time you get to Spy! you have to wodner does this include shooting guns, punching bad guys, driving fast cars and all upper-class sports? If so it might be better described as "Bond!" and defined as "Everything James Bond does" as many of his activities have little to do with what would traditionally be called spying activities.

I'd really rather not see Skills! that only have such ad hoc definitions.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

Maxing can be fun, but only selectively. It pays to heed to niche protection (however those niches might be defined as), even if that's something to be ignored potentially in GURPS. I like making my characters really specialized in what they do but be quite gimped in other aspects of their design.

Maxing can be fun, and so can min/maxing, but characters built purely to min/max I find to have a lot less character.

As to how broad your skill base needs to be, it really depends upon how many characters will be playing and what the genre is. But being clearly very good at something and less so in everything else is definitely more interesting than being solidly good at everything (both can be achieved typically with the same point count).

In 32 years of GURPS, I've played from 50pt to 1000+pts. Some built at those levels and some grown to those levels (which definitely changes how they are put together and their "efficiency"). The story is always more interesting if you need others to tell it with you :-)

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

I know Rule 0 is a thing (and I frequently invoke it), but you simple can't go around forbidding basic stuff like that without clear guidelines.

Sure. Where did I suggest that you should?

As a GM you let players know what the expectations and limits and requirements are. If someone comes to you with a character that doesn't work for your game, you need to be able to talk to them about it, and see if a version of what they want can be created and help them but be honest if it can't.

I've played a character with an IQ of 16. She was meant to be a genius. Along with the GM, we specifically didn't just throw a point here and there at skills. We chose skills that made sense for the character and we looked at things like will and perception and decided what fit. I'm pretty sure most GMs and players do this. So my advice remains, don't do things that you think will break the character or the game, and don't complain about a system that can be "broken" when you have complete control over not breaking it :-).

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

When you have only Science! it's easily and clearly defined as "Skill in all forms of scientific knowledge".

However even Medicine! begins stretching the definition to "Skill in all medical activities".

You do realize since Medicine is a science that that really doesn't make sense, right?


Nevermind that is not how Medicine! works:

Sure, Biology, Diagnosis, Electronics Operation (Medical), Expert Skill (Epidemiology), First Aid, Hypnotism, Pharmacy, Physician, Physiology, Poisons, Psychology, Surgery, and Veterinary are on the table but Bioengineering and/or Esoteric Medicine may not be.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

By the time you get to Spy! you have to wodner does this include shooting guns, punching bad guys, driving fast cars and all upper-class sports? If so it might be better described as "Bond!" and defined as "Everything James Bond does" as many of his activities have little to do with what would traditionally be called spying activities.

I'd really rather not see Skills! that only have such ad hoc definitions.

Uh, Spy! expressly states "This does not include combat skills. (sic, ...) if the players get too creative, remember that Spy! covers activities directly related to the business of intelligence-gathering, not every exploit of cinematic secret agents (so no Carousing, Gambling, or Sex Appeal)."

So wildcards are not as ad hoc as you think.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Farmer

Sure. Where did I suggest that you should?

As a GM you let players know what the expectations and limits and requirements are. If someone comes to you with a character that doesn't work for your game, you need to be able to talk to them about it, and see if a version of what they want can be created and help them but be honest if it can't.

I've played a character with an IQ of 16. She was meant to be a genius. Along with the GM, we specifically didn't just throw a point here and there at skills. We chose skills that made sense for the character and we looked at things like will and perception and decided what fit. I'm pretty sure most GMs and players do this. So my advice remains, don't do things that you think will break the character or the game, and don't complain about a system that can be "broken" when you have complete control over not breaking it :-).

Of course there isn't a problem if a player shows up and says "I'm going to create a high IQ character but he is only really good at doctor stuff", as you did as a player. If anything they are overpaying.

There is a problem comes up when a player says "I'm going to create a scrawny but super-smart character that is a great generalist. A Jack of all trades guy!".

I personally don't have a problem with the latter _as a concept_. The problem is that the character ends up getting dramatically more mileage out of their points than the character that doesn't put 15 points in random other stuff like Lockpicking or whatever.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

Nevermind that is not how Medicine! works:

Sure, Biology, Diagnosis, Electronics Operation (Medical), Expert Skill (Epidemiology), First Aid, Hypnotism, Pharmacy, Physician, Physiology, Poisons, Psychology, Surgery, and Veterinary are on the table but Bioengineering and/or Esoteric Medicine may not be.



Uh, Spy! expressly states "This does not include combat skills. (sic, ...) if the players get too creative, remember that Spy! covers activities directly related to the business of intelligence-gathering, not every exploit of cinematic secret agents (so no Carousing, Gambling, or Sex Appeal)."

I'm not fond of laundry lists either. I could go to G:Supers and look at its' big list of Wildcard! Skills each with its' (sometimes improbable) list of regular Skils affected and this is all not user friendly.

Much of this was easier when Gurps skill list was category organized by default. That would have made it clear that Science! covered Phyiology (with an unlimited number of specializations) but not Physician, First Aid or Surgery.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I'm not fond of laundry lists either. I could go to G:Supers and look at its' big list of Wildcard! Skills each with its' (sometimes improbable) list of regular Skils affected and this is all not user friendly.

Much of this was easier when Gurps skill list was category organized by default. That would have made it clear that Science! covered Phyiology (with an unlimited number of specializations) but not Physician, First Aid or Surgery.

True turning the skill section into one gigantic white pages was one of the few missteps of 4e. Though to be fair Science! in Classic was a weird beast as it required:

*Research skill at 13+
*A minimum of two skills (2 points in each, or 4 total) in a hard or soft science (but not from liberal arts) (see note 1 below)
*To be no higher then -2 of the lowest prerequisite science skill. (see note 2 below)

More over the Compendium was totally mum on how TL penalties factor into this though logically it should effect the relative prerequisite science skill reducing this version of Science! substantially which does not happen with the 4e version.

Note 1: This included but was not limited to Agronomy, Alchemy, Anthropology, Archaeology, Astrogation (if applicable), Astronomy, Biochemistry, Botany, Chemistry, Computer Programming, Diagnosis, Ecology, Economics, Electronics, Engineer, Forensics, Genetics, Geology, Linguistics, Mathematics, Metallurgy, Meteorology, Naturalist, Nuclear Physics, Physician, Physics, Physiology, Psychology, Surgery, Veterinary, Weird Science, and Zoology

Note 2: "For example, if your prerequisite skills are Biochemistry-16 and Botany-14, you cannot take Science! at more than 12." (Compendium I pg 158)

Wildcard skills are best suited to Supers there character pulling skills from seeming nowhere was standard