Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-27-2020, 08:04 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

For example if you have Burning Attack (Area Effect, Persistent) you create a 10-second firewall, but then an ally needs to get through NOW. You can't actually take it down, just wait it out...

Cancellable seems like a perfect solve to deal with that situation.

Otherwise I'm wondering what kind of options might exist.

I was wondering, if a characteer was in a situation like that and didn't have Cancellation, would the next best bet (assuming it was a power) be to roll "Power Parry" against your own ability to try and reduce the damage, representing temporarily making a hole in the flames for your ally to run through?

That's not a guarantee though. 2d burning minus 2d burning might work out to 0, or you could roll 12 minus 2 and still do 10 damage to your ally.

The only way to truly be safe there would be to use less than max damage for your firewall so that you full-damage power parry could always take it down. So for example you had 12d burning max, you'd only do 2d firewalls so that you'd always be guaranteed to be able to do enough damage on a Power Parry to let your allies through a hole.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 09:45 PM   #2
kirbwarrior
 
kirbwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
Default Re: would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

I'd allow it. I've allowed Cancellation on Binding before and this seems similar enough in utility. All three are attack advantages so shared modifiers can make sense. In fact, I'm not sure what I wouldn't allow it on, but I know a lot of other abilities already have either a built in cancel or must be maintained anyway.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
kirbwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2020, 11:13 PM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
I'd allow it. I've allowed Cancellation on Binding before and this seems similar enough in utility. All three are attack advantages so shared modifiers can make sense. In fact, I'm not sure what I wouldn't allow it on, but I know a lot of other abilities already have either a built in cancel or must be maintained anyway.
Costs Fatigue for Innate Attack is usually "to make the shot" and then persistence is free, I think?

Or maybe keeping the persistent effect up should be 1 FP per minute?

That might instead be something to codify differently as a limited enhancement?
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2020, 01:45 AM   #4
Phantasm
 
Phantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On the road again...
Default Re: would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

From what I can tell, Cancellation is valid for any ability with a duration greater than "Instant" that affects either another person or an area. This can be Binding, Afflictions or Innate Attacks, various forms of Control (such as Control Weather), Illusion, or possibly even DR w/ Force Field and Area Effect (f'rex, doing a Force Dome spell in Sorcery). It's usually paired with Persistent and/or Increased Duration
__________________
"Life ... is an Oreo cookie." - J'onn J'onzz, 1991

"But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!"

The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting
Phantasm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2020, 02:13 AM   #5
kirbwarrior
 
kirbwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
Default Re: would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Costs Fatigue for Innate Attack is usually "to make the shot" and then persistence is free, I think?

Or maybe keeping the persistent effect up should be 1 FP per minute?

That might instead be something to codify differently as a limited enhancement?
Persistent gives its own duration, which can be modified (10 seconds?). I actually don't know a way to particularly make an IA have a 'maintained' effect like spells do.

As for someone who doesn't have the enhancement, there are rules for adding enhancements to your power temporarily in Powers (alongside defaulting new abilities with them). Those seem fine for having to suddenly shut off your power.

For an actual Wall (not just Area + Persistent) at the +60% level, I can see it being an action (ready most likely) to shape it without having to spend extra for the attack (if it has a cost) to 'open' a door.

Beyond Cancellation there is also Selective Effect which lets you decide who your attack actually hurts.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
kirbwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2020, 09:42 AM   #6
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Persistent gives its own duration, which can be modified (10 seconds?). I actually don't know a way to particularly make an IA have a 'maintained' effect like spells do.

As for someone who doesn't have the enhancement, there are rules for adding enhancements to your power temporarily in Powers (alongside defaulting new abilities with them). Those seem fine for having to suddenly shut off your power.
sounds like good way to emulate how it costs mages 1 FP to cancel spells, surprised sorcery doesn't use it.

maybe allow 'reduced fatigue' to be bought to reduce TE cost from 2 to 1?

or avoid TE altogether and just apply 'Costs Fatigue' as limited enhancement to Cancellable. Then you just need Selectivity so that you flip "Cancellation" on when you need it.

Maybe a cheaper version if Cancellable is the ONLY enhancement you're able to flip on/off.

OR: rather than applying Costs Fatigue to Cancellable (which would probably be 1 FP per attempt to cancel... those can miss!) you insead apply Costs Fatigue to the "Limited Selectivity" so that it costs 1 FP to flip the capability-to-cancel on and off. Like for example if there were other limitations that applied to it (even more fatigue cost?) or if you were charging 1FP/second to keep the enhancement active (giving incentive to shut the enhancement off when you don't intend to have cancellation accessible)

"Limitation applies on use of ability imparted by enhancement" should only apply to enhancements that add active components to an advantage though (such as shooting cancellation rays)

Stuff like "Stable Casting" enhancement for Magery would need to be "on before you cast your spell" I think, to deal with the problem it would create with Information Spells.

If "my Stable Casting's associated limitations only kick in when I actually need to reroll my crit failure" was the policy, the kicking-in of stuff like Costs Fatigue or Costs HP could give a warning that you indeed failed, so if you failed the Stable Casting roll (get bad info) you would know the info is bad.

I guess one option might be to only charge Stable Casting's limitation (like costs HP/FP) if the SC roll is successful, so if it fails, you have no indicator the data you're getting is crit-fail misinfo instead of a success.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2020, 05:17 PM   #7
kirbwarrior
 
kirbwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
Default Re: would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
sounds like good way to emulate how it costs mages 1 FP to cancel spells, surprised sorcery doesn't use it.

maybe allow 'reduced fatigue' to be bought to reduce TE cost from 2 to 1?

or avoid TE altogether and just apply 'Costs Fatigue' as limited enhancement to Cancellable. Then you just need Selectivity so that you flip "Cancellation" on when you need it.
So am I. Maybe they didn't want that feel for Sorcery? Maybe it's just really fiddly for the writer?

Reduced Fatigue on advantages that don't cost FP already affect Temporary Enhancements and Abilities at Defaults. Powers warns about that with making power modifiers that include limited versions of it (such as Reduced Cost Only at Holy Sites). For an attack, I feel like you could allow Costs FP and Reduced Cost where you must pay a minimum of Costs FP each time you use it but Reduced Cost still takes effect for things like this.

You wouldn't need Selectivity for enhancements that are limited in use just like you don't need Switchable for (most) traits if you limit usage. Also, Costs FP comes out to a really tiny amount on Cancellation :(

What might work better is a perk that lets you spend FP to cancel a spell. Cancellation is still better for general use, but the perk (or just feature if you want) would let you spend FP on spells (powers) that don't have it to turn them off. Magic has that as a built in option (IIRC) and it seems like it could be one of those 'free' pros when building powers.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
kirbwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2020, 05:55 PM   #8
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Reduced Fatigue on advantages that don't cost FP already affect Temporary Enhancements and Abilities at Defaults. Powers warns about that with making power modifiers that include limited versions of it (such as Reduced Cost Only at Holy Sites).
A well-kept secret, let's not spread it around :)

Of course no amount of "reduced fatigue" on your power modifier can compare to Mana-Sensitive just giving unlimited next-second FP refunds in Very High Mana or zero-cost abilities in Wild Mana.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
You wouldn't need Selectivity for enhancements that are limited in use just like you don't need Switchable for (most) traits if you limit usage. Also, Costs FP comes out to a really tiny amount on Cancellation :(
Doesn't it always?

That's why measuring characters in ⅒ CP is aces so that low-level abilities will still take it. Whole-number rounding per canon rules is anti-complex.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
What might work better is a perk that lets you spend FP to cancel a spell.
Perhaps modular abilities where the slots are used to purchase Affliction enhancements of varying prices for various abilities with durations?
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2020, 06:54 PM   #9
kirbwarrior
 
kirbwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
Default Re: would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
A well-kept secret, let's not spread it around :)

Of course no amount of "reduced fatigue" on your power modifier can compare to Mana-Sensitive just giving unlimited next-second FP refunds in Very High Mana or zero-cost abilities in Wild Mana.
Oh absolutely true. In fact, you could rule those 'holy sites' as similar to Very High Mana or Wild Mana (at least for purposes of costs).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Doesn't it always?

That's why measuring characters in ⅒ CP is aces so that low-level abilities will still take it. Whole-number rounding per canon rules is anti-complex.
I understand why GURPS does things in whole character points, but I personally do take a step in this direction by rounding things only on the last step (otherwise you get oddities like 0d+1 crushing and impaling being the same cost).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Perhaps modular abilities where the slots are used to purchase Affliction enhancements of varying prices for various abilities with durations?
As a full on power? That sounds awesome. As a single cute option? I think it would be overkill. I've used this for things like Delay since it can be done in so many different ways, but Cancellation is honestly so small that it might even be overpriced at +10%. A perk that gives you the option of spending a large resource (FP) to use it once isn't going to break anything.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
kirbwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2020, 09:51 PM   #10
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: would Cancellable make sense for all persistant abilites, not just Affliction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
you could rule those 'holy sites' as similar to Very High Mana
I feel sometimes like maybe some kinds of "energy limits" ought to exist in mana areas, like maybe on a "per yard" basis.

Something like (let's say if we were basing it on the Continuous Mana idea from Thaumatology that each hex can hold a certain amount of mana.

Say something like 10 plus skill modifier. So normal hexes hold 10 energy, Low holds 5 energy, High holds 10, Very High holds 15. For simplicity.

This energy could be sapped through various things that would usually offset energy costs, such as "cost reductions for high skill", cost reduction to 0 for critical success, having "Power" on an enchanted item, being absorbed by a powerstone, Recovery Energy restoring FP faster, etc...

So if someone was using it up too quickly then it should be temporarily "out" and you'd need to move to another hex (or at least move your staff into the other hex) to tap the 'circulating energy' in that hex too.

However there should be an "equalization pressure" going on between adjacent mana-holding hexes (ie everything except no mana) where things holding the highest % would naturally flow into hexes holding a lower %.

So for example, a Low Mana hex holding 5/5 energy is at 100% capacity. If it is next to a Normal Mana hex holding 5/10 energy at 50% capacity, gradual equalization should happen, like air/water currents of cold and hot balancing out.

I'm not sure how gradual that should be. Maybe something like 1 per second so it goes from 5/5 5/10 to 4/5+6/10 (80% v 60%) to 3/5 7/10 at which point it stops because now you're at 60%/70%.

To stop a constant shuffle back to the earlier state, you'd need some rule like "a higher-mana zone will not give up 1 energy to a lower mana zone if that would result in it dropping to a lower %.

As for how the energy comes back: one idea is just that living beings who are in a state that they could be recovering FP or HP but are not missing any, instead shed that "life energy" into the environment, which restores "depleted mana", unless it's shed in a No Mana zone, which simply can't contain it and it dies off.

Another idea might be that there's some basic fixed regeneration rate "from zero". You could base that on the rate powerstones recover at, perhaps.

Another might be "mana is the mating ground of energy" where mana recovers exponentially (1 becomes 2 becomes 4 becomes 8, per minute or per hour or per day) which gives incentive not to use it up too quickly if it's the only high-capacity mana pool around (much like the FP recovery rules used in Last Gasp)
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cancellation, power parry

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.