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Old 10-02-2023, 09:30 AM   #1
Bathawk
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Default Striking Strength For Bows?

I was wondering if Striking Strength applies to Bows? My guess is yes, because whether it increases damage to a strength based melee weapon or a strength based ranged weapon is a matter of semantics.

What made me decide to ask is hat things can get a bit crazy when the St...striking or otherwise is applied to range factor of the weapon. Most GM wouldn't care if an archer can fire an arrow three-quarters of a mile, but thought it was worth bringing up.

And if you would not allow striking strength to be used, How would you price "only for bows" ST?
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Old 10-02-2023, 09:59 AM   #2
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Striking Strength For Bows?

Yes, Striking ST applies. Also Arm ST. See uFAQ post #3.

(Note that the description of that trait on B89 says "for the purpose of calculating thrust and swing damage". Bows use thrust damage. It doesn't say anything about "only with melee weapons", though it's easy to read that into the color text "striking a blow" in the first sentence.)

As with increased regular ST, you'll need to buy a stronger bow to take advantage of the increased ST. Bow damage is limited by the bow's ST rating. (See "Bows, Crossbows, and ST" on B270.)

Crossbows have their own ST, and the loading time calculation, which isn't damage, uses Lifting ST rather than Striking ST.

There are arguments for making bow damage use Lifting ST instead, based on biomechanics and the difference between slow-twitch and fast-twitch muscle fibers. The Deadly Spring recommends Lifting ST.

Last edited by Anaraxes; 10-02-2023 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 10-02-2023, 10:09 AM   #3
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Default Re: Striking Strength For Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bathawk View Post
I was wondering if Striking Strength applies to Bows?
If I'm not mistaken, Basic Set doesn't make this clear, but some other sources are of help. There's the FAQ post Anaraxes notes, which says Striking ST does add to your ST for purposes of meeting a bow's ST. DFRPG also states this clearly.

Me, I'm of the opinion that it makes a lot more sense for Lifting ST, not Striking ST, to boost your ability to pull a bowstring. But the official answer to your question is that Striking ST does the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bathawk View Post
And if you would not allow striking strength to be used, How would you price "only for bows" ST?
I don't know whether that's appeared in print somewhere. The closest think I know of is the 1-point Strongbow perk in Dungeon Fantasy and DFRPG, which adds +1 or +2 (depending on your Bow skill) to your ST for using a bow.

To again inject opinion that no one's asking for, instead of Strongbow I'd prefer ST at a big "For bows only" discount as the way to do this, mirroring the way Dungeon Fantasy builds extra backstabbing power for thieves, flexibly available in as many levels as appropriate.

But in any case, we've got Strongbow as a published trait that maybe does what you're looking for.
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Old 10-02-2023, 10:40 AM   #4
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Striking Strength For Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone View Post


I don't know whether that's appeared in print somewhere. The closest think I know of is the 1-point Strongbow perk in Dungeon Fantasy and DFRPG, r.
Strongbow is from Martial Arts first I think and from there into PU@:Perks. It's definitely not restricted to the DF line.
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Old 10-04-2023, 09:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: Striking Strength For Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Strongbow is from Martial Arts first I think and from there into PU@:Perks. It's definitely not restricted to the DF line.
Good find. You're right, it goes back to MA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infornic
Sticking with official rules, Striking ST for one attack only is a -60% limitation. So increased ST for bows only would be Striking ST (Bows only, -60%) or 2 points per +1 ST. As noted, it would make sense to take the Strongbow Perk first.
Tangent: Striking ST (One Attack Only) gets you twice as much boost from a swung attack than from a thrust attack. If the selected one attack is thrust, I wouldn't mind seeing that -60% become -70% or even -80%.

In the end, I like Lifting ST as the trait that aids bow-pulling (and crossbow-cranking, and halberd hefting, and all that), with single-purpose use discounted at whatever lets "+1 ST with bows" have a cost of [1], which would replace Strongbow. But that's going off into the world of "here's how I would do things...", so we can set that aside.
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Old 10-02-2023, 10:57 AM   #6
Bathawk
 
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Default Re: Striking Strength For Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone View Post
If I'm not mistaken, Basic Set doesn't make this clear, but some other sources are of help. There's the FAQ post Anaraxes notes, which says Striking ST does add to your ST for purposes of meeting a bow's ST. DFRPG also states this clearly.

Me, I'm of the opinion that it makes a lot more sense for Lifting ST, not Striking ST, to boost your ability to pull a bowstring. But the official answer to your question is that Striking ST does the job.


I don't know whether that's appeared in print somewhere. The closest think I know of is the 1-point Strongbow perk in Dungeon Fantasy and DFRPG, which adds +1 or +2 (depending on your Bow skill) to your ST for using a bow.

To again inject opinion that no one's asking for, instead of Strongbow I'd prefer ST at a big "For bows only" discount as the way to do this, mirroring the way Dungeon Fantasy builds extra backstabbing power for thieves, flexibly available in as many levels as appropriate.

But in any case, we've got Strongbow as a published trait that maybe does what you're looking for.

Yeah I agree from a descriptive standpoint, "Striking strength" Is for strikes, where speed is the greatest contributing factor, while the steady pull of a bowstring fits the description for lifting strength.

That being said, still will probably use striking strength, especialy if the "one attack only -60%" is used, lifting strength becomes too cheap to the point of game breaking IMHO
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Old 10-02-2023, 01:00 PM   #7
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Striking Strength For Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bathawk View Post
Yeah I agree from a descriptive standpoint, "Striking strength" Is for strikes, where speed is the greatest contributing factor, while the steady pull of a bowstring fits the description for lifting strength.

That being said, still will probably use striking strength, especialy if the "one attack only -60%" is used, lifting strength becomes too cheap to the point of game breaking IMHO
Bows are stuck using thrust damage, which for much of the damage range is +1d per 8 levels of ST, as opposed to +1d per 4 levels of ST for swing-capable weapons. I don't think having to pay [9.6] per +1d to bow damage (for 8 levels of Lifting ST (Bow Only -60%)) is going to break the game; if anything, that's arguably overcharging when you consider an Impaling Innate Attack only costs [8] per 1d. To be fair, that is more like +1d+2 for any character who's going to bother with Bow Only Striking or Lifting ST (as they'd undoubtedly already have Strongbow and Bow at high enough skill for +2/die to damage), but still, not enough to break anything. As t-bone noted in the linked article, however, shifting MinST over to Lifting ST (and note that bows have a MinST that dictates how much damage they do) may justify a price adjustment, making both Striking ST and Lifting ST worth [4] per +1 - applying that same -60% Limitation to either one of them makes them [1.6]/level, rather than [2] vs [1.2].
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Old 10-02-2023, 03:28 PM   #8
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Striking Strength For Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bathawk View Post
especialy if the "one attack only -60%" is used, lifting strength becomes too cheap to the point of game breaking IMHO
Many settings limit the amount of Striking/Lifting ST that can be bought relative to base ST, often around +2 or +3.

The "one attack only" mod was described specifically as being meant for unusual cases of creatures that had just one attack out of proportion to their size. The text example was a giant rat that could nevertheless gnaw through giant armor. The only other place I find it is Dungeon Fantasy Monsters ("Ravenous"). Not necessarily available to, say, humanoid PCs in typical fantasy games.

If the disparity between that one attack and overall ST stretches your SoD, then simply don't allow it. GURPS doesn't claim that every possible combination of traits in any combination with modifiers from other traits will result in sensible, balanced combat opponents.
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Old 10-03-2023, 08:20 AM   #9
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Default Re: Striking Strength For Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone View Post
Me, I'm of the opinion that it makes a lot more sense for Lifting ST, not Striking ST, to boost your ability to pull a bowstring. But the official answer to your question is that Striking ST does the job.
Even if you don't ascribe to that in general, a bow in particular is an oddity in muscle powered weapons. In effect, you aren't striking at the target (like you are with a punch, sword swing, or even a thrown rock). You are actually holding something back against resistance, and releasing it to hit the target with its own force.

I don't think anyone would argue that you suddenly use Striking ST to lift a weight, if your intention is to drop it on someone's foot.
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Old 10-03-2023, 08:56 AM   #10
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Striking Strength For Bows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
I don't think anyone would argue that you suddenly use Striking ST to lift a weight, if your intention is to drop it on someone's foot.
Realistically, I agree, but to play Devil's Advocate a bit, I could see justification to do so from a game-design perspective, which Striking ST is "What you use to cause damage" while Lifting ST is "What you use to lift and carrying things around." In that case, you'd wind up with the oddity that a character with straight ST 12 can lift up, say, a 57 lb weight over their head and drop it on someone, while a character with ST 10 and Lifting ST 2 can do the same (it's within their two-handed lift) but might only cause damage as though the item were 40 lb (putting it within the two-handed lift of their base ST), because from a design perspective, "causing damage" is what Striking ST does, not Lifting ST. It's sort of like how in some older JRPG games you could boost a character's Strength stat and see an increase in their firearm damage.

With all that said, I think using Lifting ST is probably your better bet, and indeed shifting "can wield" from Striking ST to Lifting ST (which would automatically make bows deal damage based on Lifting ST, because bows actually deal damage based on what ST they are rated for, not based on the character's actual ST) can give a more comfortable sort of symmetry between Striking ST and Lifting ST, justifying each costing [4] rather than the current [5] vs [3].
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