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Old 05-25-2019, 05:18 PM   #41
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Default Re: Cidri Genesis

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Then there's the mass of such a thing, and how you plan on building it and keeping it in place, and/or collecting the material for it in the first place. All of those things tend to be utterly impractical even for planet-scale constructions. Also solar systems are really really really enormous - the idea of encasing one in something physical ... runs into the same problems I already have believing in planet-scale constructions, only multiplied by a number so large it's hard to comprehend, and then cubing that to account for volume... Nope to the nope power, cubed.
Just to be clear, the solar system would not be encased in any kind of physical construct... it is in a pocket dimension, sub-space bubble or similar theoretical (or fantastical) region of space that exists outside of normal space. As such, it would be immune to any stellar phenomenon or rogue asteroids/planetoids that exist outside its boundaries.
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Old 05-25-2019, 05:23 PM   #42
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If you are going to construct a Dyson Sphere for your world, don't try to justify it with logic, just do it and accept it.
That's not the part I'm asking about though. I want to know what people think might be the impacts (cultural, navigational, scientific, etc.) to a society whose night sky has no stars... a planetary system cut off from the normal cosmological assumptions.
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Old 05-25-2019, 10:29 PM   #43
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Read "Nightfall" by Isaac Asimov...
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:47 AM   #44
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Read "Nightfall" by Isaac Asimov...
Thanks Jeff. I sometimes miss the simple 'what if' premises from classic sci-fi stories. Based on what I remember, however, I'm not sure that setting will address the challenges that I presented. Didn't they live in a world of perpetual sunlight until the fall of night which actually revealed a sky full of stars that they never knew existed?

The inhabitants of my Cidri will have never known a night sky filled with stars. There could be obscure references in ancient texts written by those who were first brought to Cidri many millennia ago (remembering their original homeworlds), but the current populace will have no frame of reference to properly interpret those concepts.
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:00 PM   #45
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Thanks Jeff. I sometimes miss the simple 'what if' premises from classic sci-fi stories. Based on what I remember, however, I'm not sure that setting will address the challenges that I presented. Didn't they live in a world of perpetual sunlight until the fall of night which actually revealed a sky full of stars that they never knew existed?

The inhabitants of my Cidri will have never known a night sky filled with stars. There could be obscure references in ancient texts written by those who were first brought to Cidri many millennia ago (remembering their original homeworlds), but the current populace will have no frame of reference to properly interpret those concepts.
That's quite true, Joe, but I was more attempting to give you someone else's answer as to what the attitude of people without stars might be like. I guess that maybe "you don't miss what you never had" might be the best/simplest answer.

Of course, that doesn't really answer the navigation issue -- where everything is done by magnetic compass and dead reckoning, I suspect mapping would be a tremendous issue (and generally rather inaccurate) and trans-oceanic navigation extremely difficult (they'd generally want to hug the sea-coasts, and if there weren't extensive island chains (a la the East Indies) trade routes probably wouldn't be established at all). Which is not to say it would be completely impossible, though even the Polynesian navigators (who famously relied on the sea itself, it's taste, the feel of the water itself, the flow of the currents against their hands, the known prevailing winds, etc.) used the stars quite a bit too.

But maybe they have a new branch of magic -- we'll call it "geomancy" for the purposes of this discussion -- which has spells for navigation, mapping, and so on...
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Old 05-26-2019, 01:50 PM   #46
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Of course, that doesn't really answer the navigation issue -- where everything is done by magnetic compass and dead reckoning, I suspect mapping would be a tremendous issue (and generally rather inaccurate) and trans-oceanic navigation extremely difficult (they'd generally want to hug the sea-coasts, and if there weren't extensive island chains (a la the East Indies) trade routes probably wouldn't be established at all). Which is not to say it would be completely impossible, though even the Polynesian navigators (who famously relied on the sea itself, it's taste, the feel of the water itself, the flow of the currents against their hands, the known prevailing winds, etc.) used the stars quite a bit too.

But maybe they have a new branch of magic -- we'll call it "geomancy" for the purposes of this discussion -- which has spells for navigation, mapping, and so on...
Fortunately, we're dealing with a world that was quite literally created by 'intelligent design'. I believe the Mnoren architects must've considered factors like this and tried to account for them in some way so maybe the approach here should be to think like a Mnoren... how would you (asking all of the brainiacs here) address these challenges.

One idea I had was inspired by another RPG setting that I love (the system, not so much); RIFTS. Although ley lines are supposedly naturally occurring phenomenon, what if the Mnoren intentionally created a network that channeled lines of magical energy in such a way as to create a literal and (at night) visible grid that could be used for navigation... essentially the lines of longitude and latitude would be physically manifest.

Too 'on the nose', perhaps?
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Old 05-27-2019, 12:58 AM   #47
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I could see the Ley Lines concept working (though I certainly wouldn't make them visible!).

This topic got me thinking about religion too. Would a species that evolved on a planet like that ever go into pagan religious thought? Wouldn't the Sun (and maybe the moon) be their only two physical manifestations of god-like powers? And wouldn't they therefore move almost directly into a monotheistic religious direction (with the moon as the sun's "consort" at best)?*

Mind you, the premise of your world is that everyone came from somewhere else (that is, every species "evolved" elsewhere), so their primitive religions would have been informed by astronomy and astrology as ours were, so this is a moot point, but still I thought it was an interesting line of speculation...

*(And, BTW, without stars, astronomy and astrology, originally conducted in order to interpret the wills of the Gods, would mathematics ever be invented by such a race?)
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Old 05-27-2019, 10:01 AM   #48
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Well the spell from Interplay Summon Spican Stardog wouldn't work... but we didn't use that anyway.

And what about the effect on astrology? Maybe everyone lacks personality, or has similar personality traits due to the lack of star signs. Or perhaps they do, but astrology doesn't exist. Or maybe astrology is known, but people think stars are just something an astrologer needs to see with their third eye. Or...

More seriously, perhaps the M'noren who created the world don't mind that it's hard to navigate there. Maybe they prefer that. As a GM, I tend to enjoy differences between places and elaborating on their effects. More difficult navigation and mapping sound like a perk to me rather than something I'd necessarily want to undo and return to "normal".

But again on the "planet-scale engineering is an extreme ability, especially to actually do rather than just theoretically be able to do", it seems to me that if the M'noren can really construct a world in the first place, and bothered to do so, with some sort of planar barrier all around it, no less, then arranging for lights in the sky would seem well within their means. After all, even insanely terrible 20th Century corporatist thinkers suggested advertising in the sky. If the stars were night-light satellites, then that would also tend to mean they could be arranged in whatever constellations and interesting movements the M'noren wanted. It could be pretty useful for claiming you were godlike if you could predict and cause the stars to do things!
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:14 PM   #49
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More seriously, perhaps the M'noren who created the world don't mind that it's hard to navigate there. Maybe they prefer that. As a GM, I tend to enjoy differences between places and elaborating on their effects. More difficult navigation and mapping sound like a perk to me rather than something I'd necessarily want to undo and return to "normal".
That's a good point. Various societal and geographic controls would need to be established in order to maintain a balance among the extremely diverse populace and to ensure that balance could be maintained even in their absence. The lack of a large-scale reliable navigational system would certainly be an excellent control against widespread empire building and population migration.


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But again on the "planet-scale engineering is an extreme ability, especially to actually do rather than just theoretically be able to do", it seems to me that if the M'noren can really construct a world in the first place, and bothered to do so, with some sort of planar barrier all around it, no less, then arranging for lights in the sky would seem well within their means. After all, even insanely terrible 20th Century corporatist thinkers suggested advertising in the sky. If the stars were night-light satellites, then that would also tend to mean they could be arranged in whatever constellations and interesting movements the M'noren wanted. It could be pretty useful for claiming you were godlike if you could predict and cause the stars to do things!
I considered having a system of satellites as artificial stars and I still might use something like that. It would certainly support one of my other ideas of Mnoren as master manipulators; starting out as little more than inter-dimensional con men to become the secret (or not so secret) rulers of nearly 400 alternate Earths.

Which reminds me... I also like the idea of the Mnoren with limitations. I don't think it is a stretch to assume that much of their power and technology was stolen. The rest then, is a result of perfecting the role of the 'great and powerful wizard of OZ' on a massive scale.
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Old 05-28-2019, 06:59 PM   #50
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Default Re: Cidri Genesis

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That's not the part I'm asking about though. I want to know what people think might be the impacts (cultural, navigational, scientific, etc.) to a society whose night sky has no stars... a planetary system cut off from the normal cosmological assumptions.
going back to the 80s, I highly recommend a DC comic book titled "The Warlord"
a hollow Earth, Atlantis, Magic, High Technology, a sun (and orbiting moon!) suspended at the center. the original Shakira. It had it all.
I still have the collection, minus one issue.
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