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Old 02-25-2021, 08:16 PM   #41
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
Depending on the GM, once.
I once killed a PC on the first turn of combat during the first hour of play with a ST 12 NPC flailing around with a hammer. It was AOA (Strong) that was a random critical success with a random hit to the skull and dealt maximum damage (dealing 32 HP of damage). The PC had HT 12 and HP 12, they rolled a '16' on their survival roll, so they dropped dead right then and there.
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:05 PM   #42
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

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Originally Posted by Mercurae View Post
There are definitely two different styles presented here. One side is the RAW, strategy gamers who use all the numbers and rolls no matter what and play it straight.
Nope, not a "strategy" gamer either whatever that is. The World of D'y'r't game I've been referring to was actually quite light in combat detail even thpough it was high in power level.

I also don't follow the rules because they're rules. I do it to be consistent. If it's been established that the PCs are _that_ fast and _that_ powerful then they remain so even if some criminal npc wants to threaten a helpless target. I'm not going to fudge the rules to make such a trope work.
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:08 PM   #43
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

I always wonder about correct method of dealing with the hostage scenario

For example a scenario that occurred in game, my character a provincial governor fought off an assassination attempt in his palace and the fleeing assassin's grabbed a girl in their flight

Sound the alarm and pursue and catch the assassin's in the courtyard between the palace and the outer gates, the palace guard closing the gates and around and more and more soldiers spilling out of the palace and barracks and on the wall so the assassin's were extremely outnumbered and outgunned, the assassin's readied weapons and turned to face me except for the one putting a knife to the girls throat

So . . . . What would you do in this scenario?

"Surrender or die as you stand"
"No governor, we will not surrender. You will . . . "
"All units, open fire!"

. . . . This was not a successful rescue
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:21 PM   #44
Keampe
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
I always wonder about correct method of dealing with the hostage scenario

For example a scenario that occurred in game, my character a provincial governor fought off an assassination attempt in his palace and the fleeing assassin's grabbed a girl in their flight

Sound the alarm and pursue and catch the assassin's in the courtyard between the palace and the outer gates, the palace guard closing the gates and around and more and more soldiers spilling out of the palace and barracks and on the wall so the assassin's were extremely outnumbered and outgunned, the assassin's readied weapons and turned to face me except for the one putting a knife to the girls throat

So . . . . What would you do in this scenario?

"Surrender or die as you stand"
"No governor, we will not surrender. You will . . . "
"All units, open fire!"

. . . . This was not a successful rescue
Wait 'em out. They're trapped and know that as soon as the girl drops, all of them are dead. Offer them something - their lives.

"Let the girl go, tell us everything, the whole conspiracy and everyone involved and give sworn testimony of it all and you get life in prison instead of death right now."

For most people where there's life, there's hope. Most likely the prospect of escape from prison starts creeping into their minds almost immediately. Doesn't really matter that escape almost never works - everybody's the hero of their own story and heroes escape.

- Shane
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:36 PM   #45
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
So . . . . What would you do in this scenario?
There are a variety of options depending on the culture and personality, but realistically none of them have great odds. Given that they're armed with melee weapons and in the open, dogpiling them has okay odds.
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Old 02-25-2021, 09:52 PM   #46
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

Hostage rescue used to be a popular law enforcement media genre. Not sure if it's gone out of fashion some?

Random suggestions related:
-Don't let them leave with the hostages under almost any circumstances. That's a disaster.
-Letting them escape without the hostages may be an acceptable deal, particularly if you can arrange for their escape to be doomed in advance.
-If the hostages aren't being harmed, time is likely on your side - you've got supplies and reserves.
-Always be ready to attack if they give you a decent opening.

For a standoff in a courtyard where they're literally surrounded by your people in the open, surrounded by your walls...the hostage takers are pretty obviously doomed. Negotiate surrender if possible, attack at the most opportune time if not. (Letting them get to the gate and ambushing with units concealed around the outside corners maybe.)
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Old 02-25-2021, 10:06 PM   #47
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

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Originally Posted by Lameth View Post
things can go off the story and come down to numbers., which is against the purpose of a story, tension, drama, and role playing.

If you needed that PC to know that if you do this, that NPC woman's throat will be cut and no matter how fast you think you are in combat, she will die. Yes she has a HT of 8, and yes she can go down to x5 before auto death, and yes she will be making health rolls for death, but no...if you press the bad guy blood will flow.
I'm not sure what problem you're experiencing here.

Passing your HT check to avoid immediate death doesn't mean the blood doesn't flow...

Where exactly is the drama in hand-waiving "I'm not even rolling, she's just dead" ?

I think there's a lot more drama in using the optional blood loss rules, and she's losing an extra HP every 30 seconds and you can't stop the blood flowing fast enough with your First Aid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameth View Post
Or when the PC walks into the dark room and from behind they hear the light click of the gun to their back...
if you move you will not just take 2d6 to vitals, no, you may take maybe x4 or x5!!, and its automatically a major wound and stunning and so forth, due to you not being prepared for the attack and are at a disadvantage in this.
Is the x3 vitals gets not enough? You're talking an average of 21 damage on 2d6 (7x3) which puts you below -1xHP if your HP is 10.

If that HT check is somehow passed you should be applying those optional blood loss rules.

Slowly bleeding out is way more dramatic than insta-die.

About the only thing I'd want to tweak is having more prequent intervals than 30 or 60 seconds for those optional rules. It's rather spread out. Like how about chop that time by 1/10 and every 3 or 6 seconds you do a HT roll to avoid losing 0.1 hp ? Maybe 0.1 fp to boot.

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Originally Posted by Lameth View Post
If there is no sense of danger or automatic crippling or death in those rare movie drama moments, and a simple healing spell or a fast compress to the throat can stop any tension, then what is the best middle ground?
Who says the healing spell is simple? Maybe there's low (-5) or very low (-10) mana, or you can only heal ceremonially (10 seconds, not 1) or you're too far away (-1 per yard)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameth View Post
No im not looking for auto death of the PCs, but to give a higher sense that there is true danger outside of your hit points pool totals, and the death rolls with a 16 that you will always make.
Cole's Last Gasp rules for FP can help here, -1 to HT per 20% missing FP if I recall right.

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
I don't know if this helps, but here's what's on B423:

Instant Death
Decapitation, a cut throat, etc. can kill anyone, regardless of HT and HP. If a helpless or unconscious person is attacked in an obviously lethal way, he’s dead. Don’t bother to roll for damage, calculate remaining HP, etc. Just assume that he drops to -5xHP.

The GM is left to define what "helpless" means, but if a strong thug has an ordinary person grappled with a knife held to the person's throat, you could as a GM rule the person is helpless.
GM is also left to define what "obviously lethal" is. It's a bad first since that can be a blurry line with weak weapons and strong characters.

Handwaiving this also seems to be a contradiction to 4e abandoning 3e's decapitation rules because it too easily caused deaths.

If the absolute minimum damage is guaranteed kill then yeah sure, ignore it, but otherwise I'd just say to follow the rules.

Veins/Arteries might possibly be redone so that it doesn't cause higher immediate HP loss and instead make the bleeding rules way more extreme and regular.

Last edited by Plane; 02-25-2021 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 02-26-2021, 06:11 AM   #48
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Who says the healing spell is simple? Maybe there's low (-5) or very low (-10) mana, or you can only heal ceremonially (10 seconds, not 1) or you're too far away (-1 per yard)
Ever since reading a scene in Elantris where a character was unable to heal a deep wound with his weak healing magic (the magic would just heal the surface damage, and then the wound would simply reopen and keep bleeding), I've felt it would be interesting to implement something in GURPS that made magical healing more difficult based on wound severity, rather than just meaning you can chip away at it with lesser healing effects (so you need a particularly potent potion, for example, rather than just being able to chug a quart of the weak stuff). Conditional Injury lends itself well to this; currently I'm leaning toward healing that is 3 or more severity classes lower than the wound being ineffective, healing that is 2 classes lower reducing severity by 1, healing that is 1 class lower reducing by 2, and healing equal to or exceeding severity eliminates the wound. It would probably be OK to have this mechanic replace healing iteration penalties (that is, the penalty you suffer for trying to heal the same character multiple times).

For more basic magic/Healing Advantage/whatever, a penalty based on the severity of the worst wound the foe has suffered wouldn't be out of line (although it does make supernatural healing less effective). Of course, in a setting where magical healing can readily restore someone from the brink of death, I don't see a problem with allowing magical healing to restore someone from the brink of death. Hostage-takers may have to figure out something that works quicker than a knife to the throat if their enemies have access to such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
GM is also left to define what "obviously lethal" is. It's a bad first since that can be a blurry line with weak weapons and strong characters.

Handwaiving this also seems to be a contradiction to 4e abandoning 3e's decapitation rules because it too easily caused deaths.
I'm not familiar with 3e, but I believe the Instant Death rule is more along the lines of "If the character surviving would wreck the GM and players' Sense of Disbelief, it's OK to not bother with any rolling and simply declare 'He's dead, Jim.'" In general, however, I'd be more inclined to see what the dice say.
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Old 02-26-2021, 06:22 AM   #49
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

You could apply the penalty for damage to all healing spells not just self healing
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Old 02-26-2021, 07:26 AM   #50
Tyneras
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
Default Re: Hit Points...to be, or not to be?

It would be entirely reasonable, if more book keeping, to require healing magic to heal the entire wound all in one go. 1 and 2 HP scratches would still be nothing, but a 15HP wound to the vitals could push the healer into -FP and incapacitate them or require burning up valuable energy storage items.
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