(DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

My campaign started at 125 points. At that level, the party could easily beat skeletons, but had trouble with zombies.

That sounds about right for 1st level AD&D / old-school D&D.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by SteamBub

Henchmen has 62-point templates, so that is at least the minimum. I would say that is the best for a rags to riches game.

That's true, they do. But only the Guard really looks like someone who could turn into a PC. And even the Guard looks a bit squishy to go into the dungeon without "higher level" help. I think 62 points might be too low for dungeon delving PCs.

The 125 points templates would certainly make great low-level PCs (as they are intended to be).

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Depends on attributes. A fighter with mediocre attributes could easily be 25 points or less (attributes: all 10. Skills: weapon of choice-12).

In AD&D1 fighters could use all weapons equally well, so they should have 3-4 weapon skills at 10-12. In AD&D2 using weapon proficiencies they could start with four, or two plus a specialisation, so two weapons at 10-11, plus one at 12, I suppose.

A bad hit point roll could make even a fighter awful at 1st level though. People talk about the fragility of a MU1 with 1 hit point, but at least they could still do their magic thing. A fighter with 1hp was simply screwed. I suppose if the party included enough other fighter-types and cleric you could cower in the middle with the magic user and shoot arrows at people.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Rupert

In AD&D1 fighters could use all weapons equally well, so they should have 3-4 weapon skills at 10-12. In AD&D2 using weapon proficiencies they could start with four, or two plus a specialisation, so two weapons at 10-11, plus one at 12, I suppose.

Actually, "At the start, your character will be able to employ but a limited number of weapons. The number is determined by class. When the character moves up in levels of experience to the next higher combat melee table, he or she is assumed to have acquired proficiency in an additional weapon" (PHB 36)

Fighter got the most at first level (four) and were the second fastest at getting new weapons (Monk was the fastest)

Originally Posted by Rupert

A bad hit point roll could make even a fighter awful at 1st level though. People talk about the fragility of a MU1 with 1 hit point, but at least they could still do their magic thing. A fighter with 1hp was simply screwed. I suppose if the party included enough other fighter-types and cleric you could cower in the middle with the magic user and shoot arrows at people.

You are forgetting that a Fighter could wear armor which the MU couldn't. Also if you followed the DMG1 to the letter the one spell (which could be cast only once and then relearned) the MU got it randomly (DMG1 p39)

'Great, you rolled Light for your 1st level spell. Sucks to be you.'

There were a lot of good reasons DMs didn't follow all the DMG1's rules: they didn't make sense, require convoluted nonsensical explanations (the armor and weapon restrictions), resulted in Monty Haulism (the 1500 gp per level per week - on a 1d4 rule; DMG1 p86), or didn't actually follow its inspirational material (Gandalf was a MU and he used a sword in the Hobbit, you silly game).

The later Cantrips in Unearthed Arcana didn't help, unless you wanted to make more joke's at the MU's expense (That whole book was a balance disaster)

[weby]

Originally Posted by maximara

Sounds like Dragon #99's "History of a game that failed" :-) While some of the advice there is really bad (wish twisting just rubs me the wrong way. If you can't handle the D&D version of wish then don't let it in the freaking game rather FUBARing the player over because as a GM you were a freaking idiot) there is still good information in piece.

In a long ago campaign the players had dozens of wishes used, some even hundreds. They went as far as to write a guidebook "how to use and abuse wishes". But as the campaign was geared for that it was really not a problem.

The part titled "Do not allow a character to become more powerful than a chugging locomotive." applies in this case.

The characters actually work fairly well for their current role of "want to be a major gods soon", but actual dungeon delving is not that suitable mostly for that point level.

They can take down small armies or sweet talk the armies to change sides or such..

[maximara]

Originally Posted by weby

The characters actually work fairly well for their current role of "want to be a major gods soon", but actual dungeon delving is not that suitable mostly for that point level.

They can take down small armies or sweet talk the armies to change sides or such..

Sounds like the party should be knocking around in the campaign's equivalent of the Outer Planes rather then messing with mortals.

[weby]

Originally Posted by maximara

Sounds like the party should be knocking around in the campaign's equivalent of the Outer Planes rather then messing with mortals.

The way the campaign is set up, in effect they are.. as the home plane is a "portal plane" where it is remarkable easy to planar transit, so it is a battleground between forces and has a long history of being target of interplanar conquerors and such.

But they do do a fair bit of planar travel.

[Gwythaint]

I have run 75 point and 125 point delves, links to my 75point templates herehttps://gwythaintny.wordpress.com/20...play-and-more/

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Gwythaint

I have run 75 point and 125 point delves, links to my 75point templates herehttps://gwythaintny.wordpress.com/20...play-and-more/

Which document is the 75 pont templates exactly?

Have you written up any 75 point delves? I'm having a hard time imagining that.

[Black Leviathan]

Let me preface this by saying that we generally run lower point games because we like the farm-boy does good games and we run longer arcs. Our fantasy games are not dungeon-tactical, rarely do they involve caves or treasure chests with traps on them. We also run mostly 3-4 player games.

Most of our fantasy games are 75 pt characters with -40 Disadvantages and -5 Quirks. We generally don't allow Munchkin characters so in that 75pts you have to have some professional skill support. Judging from other posts this probably seems very low but it makes the fear of mortality very present and it makes you have to make serious sacrifices for abilities like Luck or Combat Reflexes. It also gives you a very satisfying character arc in a 20-game campaign, starting as a foolish towny who can barely survive an encounter with a pack of wolves to a hero that has taken down a cult of werewolves plaguing the kingdom.