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Old 01-27-2019, 05:47 PM   #1
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Default heroic archery questions.

From how I understand it, heroic archery halves quick shooting penalties. (-6s become -3s, or -1s with weapon master)

I have a player that wants to feint with a bow while quick shooting.

He has the advantages, and the skill level to do so etc.

But we are disagreeing on the penalty.

I'm looking at it like the act of knocking the arrow, and then the act of shooting the bow are things that would take an individual 2 separate turns to pull off. And as such they are penalized as such. -6 to each. Half ed and half ed appropriately.

My my thoughts, adding a feint in there should add another "thing" to this list. Eg. 3 things that normally take a turn each to do. Leaving with a -12 to each. Halved and halved as appropriate.

But he doesn't think it should be that way because "readying the bow at a -6/-3/-1 isn't an attack and it shouldn't have the other other chunk of the penalty put on it, only the attack and the feint.

But by my logic, a feint isn't an attack either, but it follows the rules of doing lots of things in a turn the same as attacks and the like.

Any body have any official stances on the subject?
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Old 01-27-2019, 09:35 PM   #2
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: heroic archery questions.

Feints are maneuvers and use equivalent actions as attacks. The proper sequence would be Fast-Draw (Arrow) as a free action, draw bow as an action, and feint as a maneuver, so it is two actions (meaning that the normal penalty would be -6, reduced to -1 with Weapon Master (Bow) and Heroic Archer). So, the archer could fire a Feint on turn one and an Attack on turn two. The Feint does not use an arrow though, as the idea is to fool the opponent into dodging the wrong way without attacking to put them at a disadvantage for the real attack.

For example, a character with Bow-25 and Fast-Draw (Arrow)-16 attempts the maneuver. They would require three rolls for the first turn (Fast-Draw, Bow, and then Feint (Bow)) and three rolls for the second turn (Fast-Draw, Bow, and then Bow). Of course, any penalty to the attack would apply to the feint, so it works best at around 10 yards.
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Old 01-28-2019, 06:48 AM   #3
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: heroic archery questions.

The core idea for "rapid shooting" is Rapid Strike (B370). This is something you can do with an Attack or All-out Attack Maneuver.

The basic sequence is
- Ready an arrow (one Ready Maneuver)
- Ready the bow (a second Ready Maneuver)
- Attack (A third Attack Maneuver)

Fast-Draw (Arrow) allows you to ready an arrow without it counting as a combat Maneuver. That eliminates the first turn.

Heroic Archer has its own special rule that lets you ready a bow at Bow - 3, instantly (not requiring a maneuver). This is not a Maneuver at all, so it can't be an attack. If it were taking place during some maneuver (because you failed the Bow roll), it'd be Ready, not Attack.

Strictly speaking, the -3 is not the -6 for Rapid Strike, halved. It's just part of the Heroic Archer Advantage, a special rule not available otherwise. That is, a non-heroic archer can't take a -6 to ready his bow as the first half of a Rapid Strike. "Rapid ready" is not a Technique of the Bow skill. It's probably not a coincidence that that sequence looks a lot like a Rapid Strike, and Kromm probably had it in mind when he invented the Advantage.

The Heroic Archer Advantage text goes on to say that you can also make an attack at -3 with the bow you just readied via this procedure. I'll come back to that later, but let's ignore it for now.

If we've made it this far, we have a readied bow with no Maneuvers expended so far, and have yet to choose the Maneuver for our first turn. So, the Heroic Archer chooses Attack (or All-out Attack). He then chooses to make a Rapid Strike (B370). This is a way to make two attacks during the one Maneuver, but each is at -6.

Heroic Archer halves that -6 to -3. Adding Weapon Master would make it -1.

Feint not only a separate Maneuver from Attack (B325), but a Technique that defaults to your weapon skill (B231; also in MA). That is, a feint becomes a kind of attack.

So, you can make a feint for an attack during a Rapid Strike. This is still an "attack", just as would be any Technique of your combat skill, and so still suffers the Rapid Strike penalty (-6/-3/-1, depending on Advantages). You could then make a regular attack with your feint bonus as the second half of your Rapid Strike.

So, this path gives us, in a single turn, ready arrow, ready bow, Attack (Rapid Strike (Feint, Attack)) Both halves of that RS are at -6/-3/-1.

That leaves us with another path -- the Feint Maneuver. IMO, this is a bit of a holdover from 3e, and some of the development during 4e has been to treat a feint as something you do with an attack, rather than its own Maneuver. That gets along better with other features like Extra Attack or Rapid Strike. (A GM might even house-rule out the Feint Maneuver entirely.) But strictly by RAW, let's look at it.

So, our Heroic Archer does _not_ choose Attack for his turn. Instead, he chooses Feint. We're not in an Attack Maneuver, and the text for Feint clearly says "this is not an attack", so the -6 for Rapid Strike doesn't apply. There's no penalty to halve. But, you also don't get to attack in the same turn as the Feint. The archer spends his turn on the Feint Maneuver, and as a benefit possibly can "subtract your margin of success from the foe’s active defense if you attack him with Attack, All-Out Attack, or Move and Attack on your next turn".

This path gets us, in a single turn, ready arrow, ready bow, feint at no penalty. The attack waits until next turn.

The third path is the one I skipped over before. Heroic Archer specifically says that you can you rapidly ready your bow and make an attack in the same turn at -3. (It does not, alas, specify what Maneuver you use to do this, Ready or Attack or even AoA.)

If the attack is a regular attack, this gives us, in a single turn, ready arrow, ready bow, attack at -3. Strictly speaking, this penalty is not halved by Weapon Master to -1. The -3 is specified by Heroic Archer, which is not "to make a Rapid Strike... or to parry more than once per turn". We're not doing either of those things.

If the attack is a Feint Technique of Bow, then our single turn gives us ready arrow, ready bow, feint at -3 (thanks to the Heroic Archer penalty).

So, the player may be right that the feint is not an attack and so doesn't get the -6. But then, that's only true in the Feint Maneuver path. You can also feint without an attack via the HA ready-attack option -- but this still has a -3, directly specified by the advantage, and in this case the feint must be an attack (using the Technique), because "attack" is only thing HA allows on the same turn as the rapid ready.

All that said, it might well be more harmonius to rewrite HA as simply allowing a "Rapid Ready" technique of Bow, which can be used as part of a Rapid Strike (during an Attack Maneuver). This lets you shoot every turn at -3 (as in the HA text), or Feint at -3, and interacts more smoothly with other rules, so HA is less of a one-off special case. There's still a wart if you want to Rapid Ready but not attack. (What Maneuver did you choose? Probably none, as with Fast-Draw, if the ready is really "instant". So you could Rapid Ready and then Move, for instance, or Concentrate. The ready isn't half a Rapid Strike in this case. It's just a Technique that defaults to Bow -3. But if you do RR and attack, the attack is at -3, strongly suggesting it's half of an RS, reinforced by the fact that the rapid ready is also at -3. So the ready wasn't "instant", it took half an Attack Maneuver.) If you do formally consider Rapid Ready a Technique, then you also introduce the possibility of buying up that Technique to buy off the penalty (probably not something a super-archer would actually bother with, as failure isn't likely nor terribly consequential, and they've got better Techniques to buy), and you need to assign the Technique a difficulty.
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Old 01-28-2019, 07:55 AM   #4
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Default Re: heroic archery questions.

My recommendation is that you don't feint with bows. Just use "prediction shots," which work like Deceptive Attack. That way, it's clear what penalties apply: The attack roll (and only the attack roll) has -2 to hit per -1 to the target's defenses. That results in less dice rolling and less ambiguity.
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Old 01-28-2019, 10:59 AM   #5
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: heroic archery questions.

I was tiptoeing around the question of whether you can feint with a bow, because I wasn't sure if that was the goal or not.

But for what it's worth, the Technique says "any unarmed combat or Melee Weapon skill", whereas the Maneuver says "'Fake' a melee attack. You cannot Feint someone unless you could have hit them with a melee attack..." That seems to rule out feinting with bows or other ranged weapons (unless you want to feint hitting them with it, which might entail that pistol whip or... bow club? being your actual attack later).

Deceptive Attack (or Prediction Shot) seem to be a good bit more popular than Feints on the forums or in the games that I've been in.

Are there later rules which allow feinting with ranged weapons? (I don't have either Gun Fu or Tactical Shooting, for instance.)
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Old 01-28-2019, 01:11 PM   #6
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: heroic archery questions.

Martial Arts p. 121 discusses ranged feints.
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archery, dungeon fantasy, heroic archer, martial arts

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