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Old 03-29-2023, 05:46 AM   #1
hcobb
 
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Default Defense against the gargoyle illusion

How would your lone character defend against this?
  1. Hostile Caster (HC) creates Shadow in front of themselves.
  2. HC summons gargoyle illusion secretly in the shadow which isn't seen and so is not disbelieved.
  3. Gargoyle takes off inside that shadow hex. (And is still hidden.)
  4. Gargoyle flies up to 8 hexes, lands on the target (who needs to reroll 6s on HTH response due to enter from top rather than front hexes) then strikes with those stony fists at adjDX 11+4 before the target can respond with disbelief at their own base DX.
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Old 03-29-2023, 08:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: Defense against the gargoyle illusion

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Gargoyle flies up to 8 hexes, lands on the target (who needs to reroll 6s on HTH response due to enter from top rather than front hexes)
Can you provide a page reference for "from the top rather than front hexes" for the HTH attempt? I've searched my PDF for "HTH", "top", "ignore", "re-roll", and "a 6" and do not find anything that supports this.
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Old 03-29-2023, 08:23 AM   #3
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Default Re: Defense against the gargoyle illusion

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Can you provide a page reference for "from the top rather than front hexes" for the HTH attempt? I've searched my PDF for "HTH", "top", "ignore", "re-roll", and "a 6" and do not find anything that supports this.
Landing on top is ITL133, and the "behind" note at ITL117 clearly applies to sides (or top) because you can't make normal attacks in those directions. If need be consider that the gargoyle simply flies over the target, turns around in the target's hex and hence is behind them as it lands.
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Old 03-29-2023, 08:59 AM   #4
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Default Re: Defense against the gargoyle illusion

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Landing on top is ITL133, and the "behind" note at ITL117 clearly applies to sides (or top) because you can't make normal attacks in those directions. If need be consider that the gargoyle simply flies over the target, turns around in the target's hex and hence is behind them as it lands.
ITL 133 merely tates that a flying figure "may land on top" of a ground figure. It says nothing about ignoring a 6 result in the HTH attempt roll.

ITL 117 says nothing about attacks from above or "top" whatsoever. The word "above" is used on p. 117 twice, once in the HTH section to refer to a previously mentioned rule, and once in the section under Defending & Dogding to refer to auto-fails on the 4d roll. I've no idea why you would think that attacks from above enjoy the same benefits as those from behind or why a ground figure could not attack a flying figure directly above them but within range.

I'll add that "the "behind" note at ITL117 clearly applies to sides" is anything but clear. Are your sides "behind" you? They certainly aren't at your rear; if they were, attacks from there would be made at +4, not +2. A second edition of ITL would greatly benefit from an editor's care to have consistent terminology so that "behind" is replaced with "rear" to obviate bickering over rules that should be simple to understand.
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Old 03-29-2023, 10:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: Defense against the gargoyle illusion

I agree with Shostak's comments.

I also wonder what the PC is doing during the four turns this strategem requires. He is, evidently, only 8 hexes from the shadow, so not too far from the wizard. I think I'd engage the wizard on the second turn. The wizard could still cast Summon Gargoyle of course, but wizards tend to be lightly armored and squishy, so I am probably better off trying to put some hurt on him on turn 3 if I can.

Of course, maybe the wizard is not alone and I can't get to him. In that case, he's probably wasting time with Shadow, since my attention may be taken by other threats.

Can one cast an illusory gargoyle already flying? If so, that's one turn saved. If not, can someone please point me to the relevant rule? Seems plausible that the illusion has to start grounded, but I don't recall that rule.
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Old 03-29-2023, 11:11 AM   #6
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Default Re: Defense against the gargoyle illusion

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Can one cast an illusory gargoyle already flying? If so, that's one turn saved. If not, can someone please point me to the relevant rule? Seems plausible that the illusion has to start grounded, but I don't recall that rule.
ITL104: "On its first turn in the air, it has only half of its flying MA."

That first turn of movement is at creation wherever this is.
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Old 03-29-2023, 12:18 PM   #7
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Default Re: Defense against the gargoyle illusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
I'll add that "the "behind" note at ITL117 clearly applies to sides" is anything but clear.
It simply makes sense that a 6 results does not apply to an attempted HTH initiated from the side, since the defender is unable to strike in a side hex. So the "behind" in this case means "not-in-front". So yes, I would say it "clearly applies" to HTH from sides.

From above, well that is a different matter. I expect if the gargoyle flew from the front and then dropped onto the victim, the victim would be looking up. I would allow the 6. If the gargoyle was able to fly through a side or rear hex, I would then reroll the 6.

The hard part to me is when it is a 5 or 6 for a flying attacker dropping into HTH, where is the hex that the attacker "backs up to" (ITL 117). Given enough air above and the falcon example (ITL 133), such a diving attack is from above. So is the gargoyle merely still flying above the target or forced to another hex? Is it still flying or grounded?

In different situations I have ruled differently. Maybe that is the answer: it depends.
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Old 03-29-2023, 12:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: Defense against the gargoyle illusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
ITL104: "On its first turn in the air, it has only half of its flying MA."

That first turn of movement is at creation wherever this is.
Yes, I think that makes sense. Thanks.
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Old 03-29-2023, 01:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Defense against the gargoyle illusion

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
It simply makes sense that a 6 results does not apply to an attempted HTH initiated from the side, since the defender is unable to strike in a side hex. So the "behind" in this case means "not-in-front". So yes, I would say it "clearly applies" to HTH from sides.

From above, well that is a different matter. I expect if the gargoyle flew from the front and then dropped onto the victim, the victim would be looking up. I would allow the 6. If the gargoyle was able to fly through a side or rear hex, I would then reroll the 6.

The hard part to me is when it is a 5 or 6 for a flying attacker dropping into HTH, where is the hex that the attacker "backs up to" (ITL 117). Given enough air above and the falcon example (ITL 133), such a diving attack is from above. So is the gargoyle merely still flying above the target or forced to another hex? Is it still flying or grounded?

In different situations I have ruled differently. Maybe that is the answer: it depends.
I don't think your argument about rerolling 6 for side hexes is obviously wrong, but I play "behind" as meaning "rear", reasoning that someone coming in from the side is in the peripheral vision and the defender can spin around and attack. It's consistent with the (ambiguous) rules, not unreasonable in my opinion and also makes safely starting HTH a bit more difficult, which I find interesting.
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Old 03-29-2023, 02:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Defense against the gargoyle illusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
It simply makes sense that a 6 results does not apply to an attempted HTH initiated from the side, since the defender is unable to strike in a side hex.
Lots of things that make sense don't necessarily agree with the TFT rules, so I'm not convinced that this is a reliable guide.

Quote:
If the gargoyle was able to fly through a side or rear hex, I would then reroll the 6.
Attempting HTH from a rear hex, while flying or no, is attempting from the rear, so it must benefit from rerolling a 6 result.

Quote:
The hard part to me is when it is a 5 or 6 for a flying attacker dropping into HTH, where is the hex that the attacker "backs up to" (ITL 117). Given enough air above and the falcon example (ITL 133), such a diving attack is from above. So is the gargoyle merely still flying above the target or forced to another hex? Is it still flying or grounded?
I'd say that they are grounded (after all, they were attempting to land) unless there are no free adjacent hexes to land in, in which case they are above the intended target but still flying.

Given that a flyer is penalized for attacking a ground figure (-4DX, ITL 133), does a ground figure enjoy a modifier to their roll to repel HTH attacks from the air? RAW never mentions it, but it would be consistent with the spirit of the normal attack penalty.
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