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 05-21-2011, 03:13 AM #221 Hohenstadt   Join Date: May 2011 Re: Altering the Initiative Order Lord Carnifex, thanks for your comments as well. After re-reading the rules, conditions, terms, etc. on this topic and the discussion here I have a better understanding of this. :)
05-21-2011, 05:40 AM   #222
Captain Joy

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Heartland, U.S.A.
Re: Altering the Initiative Order

Quote:
 Originally Posted by donal ...if the fastest person in combat chooses to delay until last in the turn, then to be first in the turn again, the have to completely miss one turn?
Since being last on turns 1, 2, 3... is functionally equivalent to being first on turns 2, 3, 4... I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.

While not RAW, I think what some folks have been advocating is that we'd always allow a player to choose to act at a lesser Basic Speed than their current effective Basic Speed. If at some point, that meant they were acting last, I would allow them to continue to choose to delay their turn order in the sequence. This would necessarily mean they missed a turn.

E.g. Basic Speeds are: A = 6.0, B = 5.75, C = 5.5, D = 5.25. Player A often wants to act at at lower Basic Speed. Their resulting turn sequences might look something like this:
1. A B C D : A chose to act normally.
2. A B C D : A chose to act normally. Notice A is acting before B and after D.
3. B A C D : A chose to act as if their B.S. was 5.74
4. B C D A : A chose to act as if their B.S. was 5.24
5. B C D A : A doesn't change anything. Notice A acts before B and after D--no different than when A was acting first.
6. B C D : A told the GM she wants to delay so she can act after B. The GM allows this, but since B already acted this turn, she'll have to wait until next turn.
7. B A C D : A acts after B again, but has effectively sacrificed a turn to do so.

I'm not claiming the above is RAW.

Note, if A was spell caster, I wouldn't allow her spells to last extra time simply because her turns lasted longer because of her decisions to delay. If A had chosen All Out Defense, I would allow her defense bonus's to last over her extra long turns (but removing such bonuses after a second is not unreasonable either). In general, if you're going to allow PCs do this delay thing, you're going to need to decide how you're going to handle the extra bits at the end of their extra long turns. Of course, allowing them to set a lower Basic Speed only at the beginning of combat avoids the problem entirely.
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Last edited by Captain Joy; 06-19-2014 at 04:43 PM. Reason: spelling

05-21-2011, 06:29 AM   #223
BaHalus

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Belém, Pará, Amazônia, Brasil.
Re: Altering the Initiative Order

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon Because they are reacting with their full reaction speed. They aren't reacting slower, they're acting [/i]later[/i]. They delay their first action to sync up with their buddies, but afterwards, their actions come one second after their previous action, every time. To bump their BS up higher again, they would have to be reacting faster than they otherwise were capable of.
Much better. Not awkward anymore.

Last edited by BaHalus; 05-21-2011 at 06:37 AM. Reason: Flood.

05-21-2011, 06:30 AM   #224
BaHalus

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Belém, Pará, Amazônia, Brasil.
Re: Altering the Initiative Order

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Captain Joy Since being last on turns 1, 2, 3... is functionally equivalent to being first on turns 2, 3, 4... I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. While not RAW, I think what some folks have been advocating is that we'd always allow a player to choose to act at a lesser Basic Speed than their current effective Basic Speed. If as some point, that meant they were acting last, I would allow them to continue to choose to delay their turn order in the sequence. This would necessarily mean they missed a turn. E.g. Basic Speeds are: A = 6.0, B = 5.75, C = 5.5, D = 5.25. Player A often wants to act at at lower Basic Speed. Their resulting turn sequences might look something like this: A B C D : A chose to act normally. A B C D : A chose to act normally. Notice A is acting before B and after D. B A C D : A chose to act as if their B.S. was 5.74 B C D A : A chose to act as if their B.S. was 5.24 B C D A : A doesn't change anything. Notice A acts before B and after D--no different than when A was acting first. B C D : A told the GM she wants to delay so she can act after B. The GM allows this, but since B already acted this turn, she'll have to wait until next turn. B A C D : A acts after B again, but has effectively sacrificed a turn to do so. I'm not claiming the above is RAW. Note, if A was spell caster, I wouldn't allow her spells to last extra time simply because her turns lasted longer because of her decisions to delay. If A had chosen All Out Defense, I would allow her defense bonus's to last over her extra long turns (but removing such bonuses after a second is not unreasonable either). In general, if you're going to allow PCs do this delay thing, you're going to need to decide how you're going to handle the extra bits at the end of their extra long turns. Of course, allowing them to set a lower Basic Speed only at the beginning of combat avoids the problem entirely.
Yes, if you delay more them once you will effectively lose one turn, but you are using that general round representation. It is not how Gurps handles turns. No universal rounds.

And, choosing in one step to in from first to last is actually doing a do nothing maneuver. The player won't have two actions in a row. Use wait for that.

05-21-2011, 07:21 AM   #225
Captain Joy

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Heartland, U.S.A.
Re: Altering the Initiative Order

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BaHalus Yes, if you delay more them once you will effectively lose one turn, but you are using that general round representation. It is not how Gurps handles turns. No universal rounds.
Quite right.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BaHalus And, choosing in one step to in from first to last is actually doing a do nothing maneuver.
Ha! Good point.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BaHalus The player won't have two actions in a row. Use wait for that.
Agreed, the only way to manage two actions in a row is with a Wait maneuver. And by the RAW, the first of those two maneuvers must necessarily be Attack, Feint, All-Out Attack, or Ready.
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05-21-2011, 07:45 AM   #226
donal

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Altering the Initiative Order

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Captain Joy Since being last on turns 1, 2, 3... is functionally equivalent to being first on turns 2, 3, 4... I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. While not RAW, I think what some folks have been advocating is that we'd always allow a player to choose to act at a lesser Basic Speed than their current effective Basic Speed. If as some point, that meant they were acting last, I would allow them to continue to choose to delay their turn order in the sequence. This would necessarily mean they missed a turn. E.g. Basic Speeds are: A = 6.0, B = 5.75, C = 5.5, D = 5.25. Player A often wants to act at at lower Basic Speed. Their resulting turn sequences might look something like this: A B C D : A chose to act normally. A B C D : A chose to act normally. Notice A is acting before B and after D. B A C D : A chose to act as if their B.S. was 5.74 B C D A : A chose to act as if their B.S. was 5.24 B C D A : A doesn't change anything. Notice A acts before B and after D--no different than when A was acting first. B C D : A told the GM she wants to delay so she can act after B. The GM allows this, but since B already acted this turn, she'll have to wait until next turn. B A C D : A acts after B again, but has effectively sacrificed a turn to do so. I'm not claiming the above is RAW. Note, if A was spell caster, I wouldn't allow her spells to last extra time simply because her turns lasted longer because of her decisions to delay. If A had chosen All Out Defense, I would allow her defense bonus's to last over her extra long turns (but removing such bonuses after a second is not unreasonable either). In general, if you're going to allow PCs do this delay thing, you're going to need to decide how you're going to handle the extra bits at the end of their extra long turns. Of course, allowing them to set a lower Basic Speed only at the beginning of combat avoids the problem entirely.
Yes, that's what I meant, sorry I wasn't clear – thanks for the detailed description <thumbs up>

05-21-2011, 07:55 AM   #227
Figleaf23
Banned

Join Date: Apr 2008
Re: Altering the Initiative Order

Quote:
That's odd. I cut and pasted it directly. It's to post 111 on this thread.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=111

05-21-2011, 07:58 AM   #228
Bruno

Join Date: Sep 2004
Re: Altering the Initiative Order

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Captain Joy Note, if A was spell caster, I wouldn't allow her spells to last extra time simply because her turns lasted longer because of her decisions to delay. If A had chosen All Out Defense, I would allow her defense bonus's to last over her extra long turns (but removing such bonuses after a second is not unreasonable either).
The REALLY interesting thing is "What happens to spells with per/second maintenance" when a spell caster moves away from the spells initative?"

your turn 1, 6.00: you cast Flame Jet
your turn 2, 6.00: you maintain Flame Jet, then Do Nothing (Delay) so that on your next turn you act at 5.25
your turn 3, 6.00: Flame jet comes up for maintenance?
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05-21-2011, 09:21 AM   #229
RyanW

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
Re: Altering the Initiative Order

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Hohenstadt Lord Carnifex, thanks for your comments as well. After re-reading the rules, conditions, terms, etc. on this topic and the discussion here I have a better understanding of this. :)
It's like a car. A good car will get you from point A to point B in comfort. There is absolutely no point in worrying about compression ratios or how a synchromesh transmission works, but a gearhead likes to know those things.
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05-21-2011, 10:57 AM   #230
BaHalus

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Belém, Pará, Amazônia, Brasil.
Re: Altering the Initiative Order

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bruno The REALLY interesting thing is "What happens to spells with per/second maintenance" when a spell caster moves away from the spells initative?" your turn 1, 6.00: you cast Flame Jet your turn 2, 6.00: you maintain Flame Jet, then Do Nothing (Delay) so that on your next turn you act at 5.25 your turn 3, 6.00: Flame jet comes up for maintenance? your turn 3, 5.25: ???
I would charge full cost for that second fraction. Round up, not down is the general rule in Gurps. So if he pays 1fp for second and maintaining is a free action I would charge 1fp in the delaying moment and 1fp in the new turn too.

Or I would just forbidden this during mantaining spells or other long actions.

 Tags kromm answer, kromm explanation, wait

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