Boy Scouts and the Rifle Shooting Merit Badge

[Dragondog]

Using a .22 caliber rimfire rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 50 feet, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter. Using these targets, explain how to adjust sights to zero.

If I'm reading this correctly, it seems a lot harder than it should be for a boy scout to earn this merit badge.
* Shoot 15 shots (modified skill of 16+)
* from 50 feet (-8)
* on a target covered by a quarter (-12)

Talking about boy scouts, I wouldn't expect a skill higher than 10-11. Working with a skill of 10, I would have to find a total bonus of +26. Acc doesn't seem to be higher than +5 on these types of weapons and the rest of the text doesn't seem to expect the need of optics. Aiming for more than a second gives another +2, braced +1. That gives a combat bonus of +8 and would require a non-combat bonus of +18. Even with the best optics, the non-combat bonus would have to be +13, which still seems to be too high.

So, what am I missing?

[Michael Thayne]

All-Out Attack is +1 to effective skill. Non-combat situations is +4 to skill. There's also precision aiming.

But I wonder if part of the problem is that this task is something GURPS doesn't actually have rules for. This description doesn't say anything about, say, hitting the bullseye on a paper target. You just have to hit a spot, any spot, and then hit that spot two more times, whatever that spot was. Minimal aiming required, just a matter of being able to keep the gun steady across three shots.

[aesir23]

Yep, it's not hitting a target the size of a quarter, it's basically hitting with all three shots with a ROF ~3 gun. The only difference is that all three shots can take more than a second.

The Armalite AR 7 .22 from High Tech has ROF 3 and Recoil 4. So shooting in a single burst, you would hit with all three bullets if you succeed by 8 (even if you were aiming at a quarter). I would assume that doing a similar trick with all the time in the world between shots should be significantly easier.

[Hannes665]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

If I'm reading this correctly, it seems a lot harder than it should be for a boy scout to earn this merit badge.
* Shoot 15 shots (modified skill of 16+)
* from 50 feet (-8)
* on a target covered by a quarter (-12)

Talking about boy scouts, I wouldn't expect a skill higher than 10-11. Working with a skill of 10, I would have to find a total bonus of +26. Acc doesn't seem to be higher than +5 on these types of weapons and the rest of the text doesn't seem to expect the need of optics. Aiming for more than a second gives another +2, braced +1. That gives a combat bonus of +8 and would require a non-combat bonus of +18. Even with the best optics, the non-combat bonus would have to be +13, which still seems to be too high.

So, what am I missing?

Well first of all 50 feet is not the same as 50 yards, 50 come to about 16-17 yards. So you got range penalty for -6 not -8. Secondly this is not "combat" this is shooting under controlled situation.

Lets say we have Johnny Scout 14 year old going for his badge. He has trained well so his skill is 12. His bolt action rim-fire rifle is accurate, acc 5. He knows the area and is used to shoot there.

So Skill 12 + 5 acc +2 extra aim + 1 braced + 1 all out and +5 for situation and familiarity (non combat shooting & knows the area). 9 + 5 for situation (I recall if max aiming bonus can only be x2 skill so he maxes out in 24) or 14.

Effective skill 24 - 6 range and -7 for target size total -13.

If his skill is base 13 he would go up to 26 -13 = 13 and so on or up to his GM granted non combat bonus that can range from 1-10.

[johndallman]

Tactical Shooting has rules that make more sense of this, on p9. Those Boy Scouts would be at about +7 from the combination of non-combat bonuses there. +5 Acc, +1 Braced, +2 Aiming, and you're at +15. Given Michael Thayne's explanation of the groups, you're there.

[Aneirin]

In tactical shooting I beleive it is called a plinking bonus which is very helpful for these types of shots.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

But I wonder if part of the problem is that this task is something GURPS doesn't actually have rules for. This description doesn't say anything about, say, hitting the bullseye on a paper target. You just have to hit a spot, any spot, and then hit that spot two more times, whatever that spot was. Minimal aiming required, just a matter of being able to keep the gun steady across three shots.

Well, there's also the fact that it was a single-shot rifle, so we had to reload between shots, but other than that it's about as easy as you describe: Hit a spot, any spot, three times. Most of us could do it within a grouping you could cover with a dime by the time we were ready for the test. I would hesitate to give any Boy Scout without training and practice outside the Scouts (eg: hunting or very avid competitive target shooting in varying conditions) more than part of a Dabbler Perk in Guns (Rifle).

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

All-Out Attack is +1 to effective skill. Non-combat situations is +4 to skill. There's also precision aiming.

But I wonder if part of the problem is that this task is something GURPS doesn't actually have rules for. This description doesn't say anything about, say, hitting the bullseye on a paper target. You just have to hit a spot, any spot, and then hit that spot two more times, whatever that spot was. Minimal aiming required, just a matter of being able to keep the gun steady across three shots.

That is true. The first shot can hit anywhere on the target, the next two on a quarter, and repeat that five times. That should lower the needed modified skill to no lower than 14+. And would affect the size penalty of at least the first shot in each sequence.

Originally Posted by aesir23

Yep, it's not hitting a target the size of a quarter, it's basically hitting with all three shots with a ROF ~3 gun. The only difference is that all three shots can take more than a second.

The Armalite AR 7 .22 from High Tech has ROF 3 and Recoil 4. So shooting in a single burst, you would hit with all three bullets if you succeed by 8 (even if you were aiming at a quarter). I would assume that doing a similar trick with all the time in the world between shots should be significantly easier.

That's an interesting point. I don't know enough about shooting to categorically say if that assumption is correct or not though.

Originally Posted by Hannes665

Well first of all 50 feet is not the same as 50 yards, 50 come to about 16-17 yards. So you got range penalty for -6 not -8. Secondly this is not "combat" this is shooting under controlled situation.

Lets say we have Johnny Scout 14 year old going for his badge. He has trained well so his skill is 12. His bolt action rim-fire rifle is accurate, acc 5. He knows the area and is used to shoot there.

So Skill 12 + 5 acc +2 extra aim + 1 braced + 1 all out and +5 for situation and familiarity (non combat shooting & knows the area). 9 + 5 for situation (I recall if max aiming bonus can only be x2 skill so he maxes out in 24) or 14.

Effective skill 24 - 6 range and -7 for target size total -13.

If his skill is base 13 he would go up to 26 -13 = 13 and so on or up to his GM granted non combat bonus that can range from 1-10.

Oops. You're absolutely right. That should only be -6 for range.

I am well aware that this isn't combat shooting, which is why I was looking for non-combat bonuses to make this possible.

Having a scout with skill 12 seems high.

There is a limit on the combined bonus from targeting systems not being higher than the weapon's base Acc, but I cannot recall a limit compared to skill.

Assuming -7 size penalty is enough, we would have something like:

10 skill + 5 acc + 2 extra aim + 1 braced + 1 all out attack + 7 non combat bonuses - 6 range - 7 size = 13. Much closer now. With a skill of 11 he might actually succeed. And with a skill of 12, I think he would succeed.

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Well, there's also the fact that it was a single-shot rifle, so we had to reload between shots, but other than that it's about as easy as you describe: Hit a spot, any spot, three times. Most of us could do it within a grouping you could cover with a dime by the time we were ready for the test. I would hesitate to give any Boy Scout without training and practice outside the Scouts (eg: hunting or very avid competitive target shooting in varying conditions) more than part of a Dabbler Perk in Guns (Rifle).

If that is the case, we'd only see a skill of about 7-10 depending on DX and how much of the Dabbler perk was invested in Guns (Rifle) and the exercise would have to be so much easier, from a higher non combat bonus and/or a lower size penalty.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

If that is the case, we'd only see a skill of about 7-10 depending on DX and how much of the Dabbler perk was invested in Guns (Rifle) and the exercise would have to be so much easier, from a higher non combat bonus and/or a lower size penalty.

I'm okay with that. I personally spent about 10-15 hours total at the range from the moment that I first picked up a rifle to the moment at which I qualified for Riflery Merit Badge, after never previously handling any sort of gun in my life.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

I'm okay with that. I personally spent about 10-15 hours total at the range from the moment that I first picked up a rifle to the moment at which I qualified for Riflery Merit Badge, after never previously handling any sort of gun in my life.

While I agree in principle, I note that this is not legal under the RAW.

But I'd say that this point, among a host of other real-world data points, is why the Dabbler Perk really needs to be extended to include other skills than IQ-based ones. By RAW, you can't have Dabbler in Guns or anything else DX-based, Per-based or HT-based. So, no characters who used to be Scouts, but either never took it very seriously or have let their skills lapse to the point that they only rate a slight bonus over default to their Knot-Tying, Survival or Hiking skills.