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Old 03-19-2021, 03:01 PM   #41
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
Being a glutton for punishment, I did do the math -- a spreadsheet actually.

38 total attributes is the break-even point. Below 38 points total, the talent points work out to be cheaper than the ITL cost of 500 XP each. Above 38 they cost more. Going from 37 to 38 costs 1000 XP (RAW) and comes with 2 talent points, hence the cost works out to 500 each, identical to the RAW at that point. From start to "finish", a 32 point figure spends only 100 XP for a pair of talent points(!) but a 40 point character has to spend 4000 for the same. Adding 16 talent points in a PC's career costs 8000 XP under the RAW, and 8300 XP this way - almost identical.

So if you ever thought 500 XP per point was too expensive for a starting character, and too cheap for a highly advanced one, this rule may work for you. Since the prices are tied to the cost of attribute increases, they'll adjust themselves automatically if you use your own, tweaked attribute costs without having to even think about it.

For my taste it may be a little too generous at the lowest end, but for such a short and simple house rule it tweaks a bunch of issues at once.
It's a good argument -- I also took a look at the numbers.

I found that Attributes/2 is a fair approximation of this and could work well for all characters, not just those focused on IQ. It also grows talent points at a slower rate for wizards than 2/IQ would (a ST 12 DX 12 IQ 8 wizard steadily increasing IQ would reach IQ 16 with 24 TP at 40 attribute points).

Of course all PCs start with 16 talent points, something normally reserved only for wizards, so it kind of nerfs IQ and levels the talent point playing field. Legacy adds enough talent diversity that PCs can still be radically different even if they all start with 16 points. IQ does still work as a gatekeeper attribute, though, so non-wizards still have good reason to gain IQ. A weapon master wouldn't need to raise IQ higher than 13 in order to gain more talents.

Add in the option to purchase talents at 500XP a point and I think I like it better than Legacy's system.

[EDIT]
I dunno, I suppose another approach might be to just start every PC off with 10 or 12 TP instead of setting it at IQ (and have them buy TP at 500 XP each). That would be even simpler and it would also remove the link between IQ and talent points (not your goal but it's one of mine :) ).

Last edited by zot; 03-19-2021 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 03-19-2021, 11:43 PM   #42
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
It's a good argument -- I also took a look at the numbers.
Thanks for that - always good to have someome check your math :)

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
I dunno, I suppose another approach might be to just start every PC off with 10 or 12 TP instead of setting it at IQ (and have them buy TP at 500 XP each). That would be even simpler and it would also remove the link between IQ and talent points (not your goal but it's one of mine :) ).
Doing that, starting everyone off with the same number, only works if you're buying future TP with XP -- otherwise, giving away TP with IQ or any other attribute increases leads to every figure with the same attribute total as another figure always having the same number of talent points. Not that they would pick the same talents, but everyone at a given level having the same quantity, even with radically different IQs, just feels a little whacky :) For myself I just want to get away from the separate buying of talents with XP altogether.
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Old 03-21-2021, 01:23 AM   #43
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

A funny thing happened to me on my way to check this very forum.

I checked my e-mail first, and I had one spam message. The subject line said "Learn a new skill!"
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Old 03-22-2021, 11:36 AM   #44
zot
 
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

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Thanks for that - always good to have someome check your math :)

Doing that, starting everyone off with the same number, only works if you're buying future TP with XP -- otherwise, giving away TP with IQ or any other attribute increases leads to every figure with the same attribute total as another figure always having the same number of talent points. Not that they would pick the same talents, but everyone at a given level having the same quantity, even with radically different IQs, just feels a little whacky :) For myself I just want to get away from the separate buying of talents with XP altogether.
Right, TP would just be bought with XP. I meant this as another way to resolve the weirdness of IQ only figuring in at the start.

One issue with keeping it tied to attributes is that any PC really only gets 8-10 additional attribute points during its lifetime. The 500XP/TP thing does help with character growth if you stick with the Legacy attribute point costs.
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Old 03-23-2021, 11:56 PM   #45
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

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Right, TP would just be bought with XP. I meant this as another way to resolve the weirdness of IQ only figuring in at the start.

One issue with keeping it tied to attributes is that any PC really only gets 8-10 additional attribute points during its lifetime. The 500XP/TP thing does help with character growth if you stick with the Legacy attribute point costs.
Well that was exactly why I proposed 2 TP with every IQ increase, both to keep IQ factoring in on an ongoing basis, and to accelerate character growth with additional talents coming at a rate double that of 1st edition ITL. Just incidentally, the perceived need to make them available for purchase with XP then evaporates.

If it seems whacky that initial TP is only 1 per IQ, and those that come later are 2 per IQ, one could simply say it's always = 2 per IQ even from the start. But I'd be too worried about IQ 14 starting characters beginning with 28 talent points -- they'd all be skilled like experienced geniuses from day 1, and wouldn't need to earn another talent point for life.

Unless (and this is big) coming up with new and generally higher costs for every talent to bring things back in balance. Lots of work there. The one new advantage of doing this is that the less valuable and more mundane talents that currently cost 1 could stay at 1, others could go up to 2, some 2 point talents could stay 2 while the more valuable ones became 3, and then there could even be 4, 5, and 6 point talents. The whole menu would become much grainier and one could fine tune it to their heart's content.

I'd already thought of trying that, but gadzooks that would be a lot of work!
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Old 03-24-2021, 10:27 PM   #46
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

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I found that Attributes/2 is a fair approximation of this and could work well for all characters, not just those focused on IQ.
That's worth testing. Let's try a few characters, some with high IQ and some with low, each at say 35 points (and 17 talent/spell points?) to put them in the middle of the range that Legacy permits. I'll give each their core talents and spells, plus those it's pretty nice to have.
Hero (halberdier); ST 15, DX 11, IQ 9; Pole Weapons, Toughness I, Toughness II, Running +9 extra - Even with needing to pay for Toughness II, he's got plenty of talent points to burn on low IQ talents like Climbing, Streetwise, Diving, Swimming, Bard, Sex Appeal, Charisma, Literacy, Horsemanship, etc.
Hero (tank); ST 12, DX 13 (10), IQ 10; Knife, Sword, Shield, Toughness I, Expert Shield +10 extra - Again, a heap of extra talent points.
Wizard (basic hedge wizard); ST 10, DX 14, IQ 11; Blur, Light, Staff, Fire, Summon Scout, Summon Myrmidon, Create Wall, Illusion, Sleep, Staff II +7 extra - Lots of other spells you could buy, but not many that are hugely valuable.
Hero (skill monkey fencer); ST 9, DX 12, IQ 14; Knife, Sword, Literacy, Physicker, Tactics, Fencer, Assess Value, Scholar, Strategist, Master Physicker +4 extra less some languages - Even with keeping him pretty focused on the high IQ talents, not aiming for being a master fencer or a face or a Woodsman, he's blown most of his talent points on the core capabilities and has little left for customisation.
Wizard (sophisticated and classically trained); ST 9, DX 12, IQ 14; Detect Magic, Light, Staff, Summon Scout, Sleep, Staff II, 3-Hex Fire, Analyze Magic, Mage Sight, 3-Hex Wall, Staff III, Summon Gargoyle, 4-Hex Illusion, Glamor, Lightning +2 extra - It's not like I've given the wizard everything he'd like to have. You could add Alertness, Summon Giant, lots of other things.
You can argue with the exact choices I've made but the pattern seems clear: characters with low IQ have all the talent points they can eat and are staring at a pretty unpalatable buffet, characters with high IQ are in the cave of wonders and have been told they can only take one item.

Question is whether this is a good thing or a bad thing and whether it's what you want. I don't like it because I want those high IQ characters to be able to buy the silly skills like Boating that may never be relevant, without missing out on something really nice. But I'm not sure how to achieve it.
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Old 03-24-2021, 10:52 PM   #47
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

FWIW, I proposed the idea of "Attributes/2" back in July of 2018.

The thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...=158370&page=7

I wrote:
"Like more than a few of you, my friends and I have been playing TFT since it first came out, lo these many moons ago. Over the years we butted up against most (if not all) of the concerns/issues that have been so thoughtfully discussed here on the forums and elsewhere. IQ bloat with talent acquisition was obviously one such conundrum.

Our "fix" for this perceived dilemma was to simply allow a character to have points of talents/spells/languages equal to half his character points round down. So a starting 32 point character would be able to take 16 points, a 36 point character would have 18 points and so on.

IQ minimums still applied (e.g. 10 for Fencing), but IQ itself was decoupled from being necessary to "remember" new talents, etc. So, for example, if a character raised his ST attribute 2 points, he could then take swimming without needing to boost IQ.

Of course YMMV, but we found this to be a simple "solution" that has served us well for decades. And with the proposed attribute cap, a character would still need to make meaningful choices when choosing initial and subsequent talents/spells/languages."

Steve Jackson was concerned to the effect that:
"I don't know. 32/2 = 16, and giving 16 spells to every starting wizard seems as though it breaks one of the big tradeoffs of Wizard."

To which I replied:
"If this is a major concern, then you could cap the total number of spells known at IQ, as I believe JLV suggested. But, truth be told, this issue never once came up in years of play. No starting wizard ever took 16 spells. They were too busy taking either "mandatory" (e.g. Literacy), supplemental/useful (e.g. Quarterstaff), or even quirky (e.g. Mimic) talents to flesh out their character.

ST+DX+IQ/2 was simply the most elegant solution I managed to come up with for the IQ bloat problem in the RAW. It just "felt" like TFT to me and my play group. Again, I realize that everyone's preference and/or play style is going to be somewhat different."

It should also be noted that players would be allowed to leave points unassigned in order to take advantage of higher level abilities down the road.
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Old 03-25-2021, 05:15 PM   #48
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

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Originally Posted by Jeff Lord View Post
FWIW, I proposed the idea of "Attributes/2" back in July of 2018.

The thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...=158370&page=7

I wrote:
"...
Our "fix" for this perceived dilemma was to simply allow a character to have points of talents/spells/languages equal to half his character points round down. So a starting 32 point character would be able to take 16 points, a 36 point character would have 18 points and so on.

IQ minimums still applied...
Hi Jeff! I think I may have read your suggestion, but back then I'd just found & joined the forum, and that thread was a couple hundred posts long, so I did a lot of quick skimming.

It may be the most elegant of the proposals we've been kicking around, a simple change that would address several concerns in just a few words. I love that kind of house rule.

It has a couple consequences to worry about though, so I'll go on preferring my solution.

16 points of talents for a starting character seems too much to me. One problem with that, and this applies more to new players, is that it will sure take longer to build a new character owing to having so many talents to choose from. I've known players who would go crazy dealing with that :) While no one has to allocate their points all at once, I know there's folk who would insist on it. Under RAW (or my own proposed variant) a fighter, if not a wizard, can be created in 5 minutes easy. Filling 16 slots is going to make that take much longer, causing some awkwardness at the table.

More importantly, a consequence of the /2 rounded down formula is that an advancing character needs two attribute increases for a new talent point. At 32 you have 16, at 33 you also have 16, at 34 you go up 1, but not until 36 do you go up one more. A 40 point character only has 4 more talent points than when they started at 32, which is a very small amount of change for the years of play it could take to get to 40 points. Yes it's nice to start with 16, but knowing you'll never get passed 20 talent points seems to take much of the fun out of the future.

For survival reasons every character is going to want to assign those 16 initial slots to anything and everything that might help keep them alive, because staying alive is always the first priority. But then the education, the skills of the figure, are largely predetermined for the length of their career.

I'll consider changing my proposal from 2 TP for each IQ increase to 2 TP for any attribute increase -- I have to think more on that. But I'll still want to limit initial talent points at equal to starting IQ, or 8 points, or something else along those lines. Now doing it this way, progressing from 32 to 40 points will result in a 16 talent point increase, which is something to look forward to.

I fear though that without requiring more earned IQ to gain talents, IQ will turn into a dump stat for all but wizards.
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Last edited by Steve Plambeck; 03-25-2021 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 03-25-2021, 06:00 PM   #49
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

I was just thinking the same thing. Jeff's approach is clearly optimized for classic TFT, not Legacy.

TBH, I wish we had discovered this method back in the 80s though I suspect it would've led to alot more wizard/heroes and hero/wizards than your typical TFT game.
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Old 03-25-2021, 06:56 PM   #50
Steve Plambeck
 
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I suspect it would've led to alot more wizard/heroes and hero/wizards than your typical TFT game.
Why though? Following RAW, the wizard will burn through their talent points twice as fast as the non-wizard, and if you follow RAW those talent points are spent on spells too. (That's not how I do it, I charge everyone the same, but require the wizards to take an expensive wizardry talent that eats up about half of their usual starting talent points anyway to get the same effect.)
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