[OOC] Worlds of Fire

[momothefiddler]

Everything seems to be fine pointwise on Jorin's sheet. The only thing that seems worth noting is that Magic! and Thaumatology(Blazen) include the bonus from Magery in their final numbers (22 and 16, respectively), but Thaumatology does not (given at 9). I'd have expected those to be either 12, 6, and 9, or 22, 16, and 19, but I don't suppose there's anything wrong with inclusing the bonus in some but not the other in the list.

[momothefiddler]

Illusion Shell as written doesn't seem to have any reason it couldn't be used on a person, but the presence and phrasing of Illusion Disguise seem to indicate that Illusion Shell would be insufficient for, say, making Michael look like someone else so he could get us a room with minimal fuss. Any thoughts on this?

On a related note, Illusion Disguise says "a Perfect Illusion Disguise even fools the sense of touch". Either this is a specific exception to Perfect Illusion's "For double cost, even the sense of touch will be fooled" or it's a poorly written example of how that line could be used. Any ideas?

[Totem]

Originally Posted by momothefiddler

Illusion Shell as written doesn't seem to have any reason it couldn't be used on a person, but the presence and phrasing of Illusion Disguise seem to indicate that Illusion Shell would be insufficient for, say, making Michael look like someone else so he could get us a room with minimal fuss. Any thoughts on this?

On a related note, Illusion Disguise says "a Perfect Illusion Disguise even fools the sense of touch". Either this is a specific exception to Perfect Illusion's "For double cost, even the sense of touch will be fooled" or it's a poorly written example of how that line could be used. Any ideas?

Okay, reading up...

The key here is the difference of intent and target. In the same way that (Animal) Control is different from Charm, Illusion Shell is intended to target inanimate objects, while Illusion Disguise is intended to target living ones. Getting down to Thaumantic technicalities, using magic to target an inanimate object and bind a spell to it is very different from binding a spell to a living one; an inanimate object will change in response to outside stimulus (or to purely mechanical principles), while a living one changes in response to its own actions, thoughts, etc.

Targeting Illusion Shell at Michael would, at best, create a static image around him, akin to overlaying a photograph or a mannequin over a real person; while it would move and respond to some degree, it would lack the necessary complexity and intricacies to follow expressions, let hair or clothes move correctly, and would probably judder fairly blatantly if he fidgeted. Illusion Disguise takes an existing illusion and adds in the extra parts to make the illusion react correctly, meaning that it isn't actually an illusion spell in its own right, merely a way of adding to an existing one, as per the Initiative spell.

Regarding the use of Perfect Illusion, this would work without doubling the cost because Perfect Illusion is intended to work in the open air, meaning a much higher cost to include the sense of touch in it. Combining this with Illusion Disguise though implies that there is already a solid object present to provide a surface to touch, and Illusion Disguise just matches the texture, etc to fit along with the movements, twitches, etc.

For the purposes of getting Michael (and Sourn) into the hotel you would need a Simple Illusion (provided that neither of them is going to be talking to anyone or sign anything) and an Illusion Disguise. That would count as two spells being on.

[momothefiddler]

Originally Posted by Totem

Okay, reading up...

The key here is the difference of intent and target. In the same way that (Animal) Control is different from Charm, Illusion Shell is intended to target inanimate objects, while Illusion Disguise is intended to target living ones. Getting down to Thaumantic technicalities, using magic to target an inanimate object and bind a spell to it is very different from binding a spell to a living one; an inanimate object will change in response to outside stimulus (or to purely mechanical principles), while a living one changes in response to its own actions, thoughts, etc.

Targeting Illusion Shell at Michael would, at best, create a static image around him, akin to overlaying a photograph or a mannequin over a real person; while it would move and respond to some degree, it would lack the necessary complexity and intricacies to follow expressions, let hair or clothes move correctly, and would probably judder fairly blatantly if he fidgeted. Illusion Disguise takes an existing illusion and adds in the extra parts to make the illusion react correctly, meaning that it isn't actually an illusion spell in its own right, merely a way of adding to an existing one, as per the Initiative spell.

So Illusion Shell is for objects and * Illusion + Illusion Disguise is for people. Reasonable.

Regarding the use of Perfect Illusion, this would work without doubling the cost because Perfect Illusion is intended to work in the open air, meaning a much higher cost to include the sense of touch in it. Combining this with Illusion Disguise though implies that there is already a solid object present to provide a surface to touch, and Illusion Disguise just matches the texture, etc to fit along with the movements, twitches, etc.

Sounds good.

For the purposes of getting Michael (and Sourn) into the hotel you would need a Simple Illusion (provided that neither of them is going to be talking to anyone or sign anything) and an Illusion Disguise. That would count as two spells being on.

Two spells total (one for each) or two spells each? I'd assumed one each because "The illusion disguise counts as only a single spell “on.”" but arguably that's still two each; just an odd way to say it. Also, I was definitely planning on a Perfect Illusion for Michael so he could be the spokesperson and do mind tricks to get us our room.

[Totem]

Originally Posted by momothefiddler

So Illusion Shell is for objects and * Illusion + Illusion Disguise is for people. Reasonable.

People or other sentients/ self-guiding... We're doing world-jumping here, so let's keep an open mind.

Originally Posted by momothefiddler

Two spells total (one for each) or two spells each? I'd assumed one each because "The illusion disguise counts as only a single spell “on.”" but arguably that's still two each; just an odd way to say it. Also, I was definitely planning on a Perfect Illusion for Michael so he could be the spokesperson and do mind tricks to get us our room.

I'm reading "counts as only a single spell on" as it being a modification to the existing illusion spell rather than being a whole new spell, so you only end up with one spell on per person.

[momothefiddler]

Originally Posted by Totem

People or other sentients/ self-guiding... We're doing world-jumping here, so let's keep an open mind.

Yeah. "People" in my mind means "sapient beings", not "humans", but I guess that still doesn't cover it all - I still need to clarify: Would Illusion Disguise be needed for a dog? What about a Roomba?

I'm reading "counts as only a single spell on" as it being a modification to the existing illusion spell rather than being a whole new spell, so you only end up with one spell on per person.

That's how I was reading it too.

[Totem]

Originally Posted by momothefiddler

Yeah. "People" in my mind means "sapient beings", not "humans", but I guess that still doesn't cover it all - I still need to clarify: Would Illusion Disguise be needed for a dog? What about a Roomba?

Stop trying to confuse me: I'm doing that to myself enough as it is... Grr...

Anyway... I'm thinking that most animals are actually going to need Illusion Disguise... Let's change "sapient" to "self-guiding". We then modify this further and declare that something like a Roomba lacks visible moving parts which would interfere with most illusions, and so could be classed as inanimate, provided that Jorin could convince himself that it wasn't sentient in some way; we're back into the realm of whether you have to pre-state everything or whether will and intend can play a significant role in magic. Basically, if Jorin stated the spell as targeting a living thing, and accepted the Roomba as living, then it would probably work because at his base TL that's the only explanation he can come up with for it. Trying the same thing in reverse (casting a conventional illusion on a person) won't work because he can't accept them as being an inanimate object and even if he could the first time they exerted their own will the illusion would be revealed as a fraud. Ditto for things like Golem; they're going to be self-guiding where a Roomba is responding to basic stimulus. Something like that anyway. It'll need to be handled on a case-by-case basis, but if there's any genuine free will or self-determination involved, assume it'll need Illusion Disguise.

[momothefiddler]

Sounds reasonable.

[Lamech]

To the OOC in the IC thread: Yeah, my research method is "ask people all this stuff". And Enslave lets me do that without raising all sorts of awkward questions. Maybe I'll get a rep as "guy who spontaneously dances".

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Lamech

To the OOC in the IC thread: Yeah, my research method is "ask people all this stuff". And Enslave lets me do that without raising all sorts of awkward questions. Maybe I'll get a rep as "guy who spontaneously dances".

indeed. I remember discussing it. I think I even challenged you to do it. I just wasn't expecting it to happen until a little later.