A closer look at Explosion Damage

[Aleph]

Originally Posted by beetle496

I have hardly watched the videos. Do none of them feature rockets or other blast weapons?

Many of them do.

Seems like there was a lot a play testing, and Covid gave an extra year of demos at cons (well, fewer cons, but more time still). How could it be the case that it didn’t come up that Wrenches for explosion damage was essentially “no effect”?

Conventions were not happening during most of this time, nor were we even in the office with each other. That doesn't mean we didn't playtest this element plenty. As you can see from Philip's post, we tested it quite a lot.

It's not that they have "no effect", it's that the explosion result part of the weapon damage is a situational effect. In the right situations, it can be devastating to strip that last control from someone. Even if the blast effect does not go off, or it is not the right situation, a standard rocket can still hit for 7 hits worth of damage.

With the greater range of design space for weapons, there are going to be plenty that are situational, and will require you to pursue certain strategies to get the most out of them.

[HeatDeath]

Originally Posted by Philip Villarreal

Here is a Car Wars story Randy and I hear a LOT:

"I once built a car so awesome that I obliterated everyone in my first turn! It was the greatest arena battle ever, and they didn't even get to shoot! [deep sigh] For some reason, I just can't seem to get the game to the table anymore."

I think a game /needs/ a dynamic, active, and regular tournament scene for it to be viable while supporting that style of play.

People who enter a tournament /know/ what they're getting into. Most other people aren't gonna play a game that supports that playstyle, against an opponent who wants to play that way.

Not a second time, anyways.

[WTFGamer]

Originally Posted by Philip Villarreal

Stronger blast weapons crossed our "fun for one" threshold, but they might not for your group."

I'll buy that for a dollar.
Thanks for this insight.

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by Philip Villarreal

Here's some insight from Sam/Randy

"Blast weapons are unique because they are ALWAYS either too weak or too strong, with little in-between.

If a control loss can't put your opponent in immediate jeopardy, you will be underwhelmed with the effect of a blast weapon.

Stripping away your opponent's last control token so your second shot rips through their defenseless chassis transforms even a low-cost blast weapon into something massively potent.

When we tested a stronger explosion effect, it created The One True Way to play. All car builds centered around blast weapons, and with no real counter-play besides driving slowly and taking fewer maneuvers (to retain control tokens), the fun was sucked out of combat AND movement.

Thankfully, if you don't think they are worth the BP, you are left with a ton of other options. Try a different type of weapon that better fits your playstyle and the game format you are in. And you are obviously free to house rule things as you see fit — we just want you to have fun with the game.

I get the reasoning, I was just trying to puzzle out why an explosion effect was the equivalent in value to a star. And if I had missed anything.

Just curious, but did it ever get tested out as removing an ace token instead of a control token? If the token was removed before defense rerolls, that seems like it would have a better relevant effect and value without being grossly overpowered.

[beetle496]

I very much appreciate the background and explanations!

Originally Posted by beetle496

How could it be the case that it didn’t come up that Wrenches for explosion damage was essentially “no effect”?

As I suspected, the answer: This could not be the case! NE is not an accurate characterization!

This conversation answers another question I had: Don’t turreted weapons seem kind of weak?

Now one of my first builds will be a Blast weapon in a turret. The special effect should be available when it can cause the most mayhem!

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by beetle496

I very much appreciate the background and explanations!

As I suspected, the answer: This could not be the case! NE is not an accurate characterization!

This conversation answers another question I had: Don’t turreted weapons seem kind of weak?

Now one of my first builds will be a Blast weapon in a turret. The special effect should be available when it can cause the most mayhem!

It isn't no effect... it just appeared to be valued the same as a star, which is what I was questioning because of the minimal benefit it has on your own attacks.

Mind you... if one were to resolve the explosion effect before making the defense rolls (which can't affect explosion control loss anyways), it would be slightly more useful.

[HeatDeath]

which is what I was questioning because of the minimal benefit it has on your own attacks.

If you can create a benefit for another player, that is an opportunity for an entirely new layer of gameplay, /not/ an obvious bug.

[beetle496]

@Heatdeath , are you agreeing that with only two cars in play, that Blast weapons are much less useful?

[Philip Villarreal]

Catching up with some more comments by Sam.

Originally Posted by Magesmiley

Just curious, but did it ever get tested out as removing an ace token instead of a control token? If the token was removed before defense rerolls, that seems like it would have a better relevant effect and value without being grossly overpowered.

"Making blast weapons remove ace tokens makes them even more situationally restrictive *and* awkwardly reliant on turn order/player count. Even if your opponents have earned ace tokens this round, they may have already spent them by the time you are able to attack. Earning ace tokens was less rewarding, too, since they could just be stripped away (which in turn made maneuvering less enticing, and...you can hopefully see how this stuff snowballs and removes fun from the table).

Control tokens are guaranteed resources of similar relative value to all players. Obviously some builds can compensate for control loss, but the risk is always present. Losing control negates your ace tokens entirely unless your equipment gives you defense dice, so the effect is even more powerful — but the timing is crucial, or it all fizzles. Explosions sit on the outer edges of the bell curve, either great or awful.

The control loss maintains a thematic element, as well. It doesn't portray a big BOOM, but it's reasonable to assume that the car got rocked hard by an explosion and is therefore temporarily more difficult to control.


By the way, I appreciate the questions and thought that y'all are putting into this — and the friendly discussion. I'm explaining how WE balanced things, but my answers are not intended to convey "I'm right and you're wrong." The game is intended to be a sandbox for everyone to play in!"

[Philip Villarreal]

Some more insight from Sam

Originally Posted by beetle496

This conversation answers another question I had: Don’t turreted weapons seem kind of weak?

Now one of my first builds will be a Blast weapon in a turret. The special effect should be available when it can cause the most mayhem!

"Turret weapons are weak because anything stronger completely undermined two major game mechanics (equipping weapons strategically and tactical positioning). It became The One True Way To Play. And even worse, everyone just turtled far away from one another, taking potshots across the arena. It made the game boring AND increased the playtime four-fold.

Our mantra during the design phase was "VROOM VROOM PEW PEW." If a game mechanic didn't serve that simple-yet-visceral battle cry, it was revised/removed/killed with fire. Overpowered turrets were an early kill-it-with-fire casualty. 🙂"