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Old 02-11-2015, 04:02 AM   #1
Anders
 
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Default We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

Here's an interesting talk on science and technology in the ancient world. These people knew the distance to the moon, that the moon had an eccentric orbit, how large the world was... they had a a grain-grinding mill with 16 large water wheels that produced flour for an entire region, they had automata that could perform plays... maybe it would be more appropriate to put them at TL3 and the Dark Ages at TL 2?
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

While individual nations/states/etc had a handful of things above their general TL, the world as a whole was still TL2. One civilization being TL2 +1 (Mathematics) doesn't make the world TL3.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

Should TL be defined by what is possible with a massive economic stretch, i.e. what the ultra-rich can do? Or should TL be defined according to what is normal, by that which is widely available?

NASA put 4 boots on the moon in 1969, as a massive technical endavour. Arguably a pre-mature thing. Had they waited until rocket technology was mature, they could have done it safer and more cheaply.

Likewise, maybe super rich iron age age folks could pay to have 100% deterministic "robots" crafted to act out pre-scripted plays. But that was so far out of rich of ordinary iron age people that it's silly.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Here's an interesting talk on science and technology in the ancient world. These people knew the distance to the moon, that the moon had an eccentric orbit, how large the world was... they had a a grain-grinding mill with 16 large water wheels that produced flour for an entire region, they had automata that could perform plays... maybe it would be more appropriate to put them at TL3 and the Dark Ages at TL 2?
Well, not necessarily. Low-Tech has some examples of this kind of thing. Maybe it's just a TL2 culture with TL 3 or 4 in mathematics or astronomy.
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Old 02-11-2015, 05:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

What about those technologies do you believe conflicts with TLs as they are currently described?
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Old 02-11-2015, 05:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

I see them as guides for the complexity of development.

In the early 20th century the beginnings of mechanised food production over shadowed some states wooden ploughs... that is many states had not developed the iron plough. Other places did not use the wheel, in my own city it was believed that wheels would break the cobble stones, so they used sleds until wheels finally replaced them.

Semaphore towers in France and the UK when on to develop telegraphs. Rail net works competed against canals.

Warfare, medicines, energy etc all develop at different rates. Necessity is the mother of invention and therefore it is truly difficult to have a degree of abstraction to cater for the historical development of all humanity.
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Old 02-11-2015, 06:49 AM   #7
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Default Re: We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

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maybe it would be more appropriate to put them at TL3 and the Dark Ages at TL 2?
I've always had the Hellenic Natural Philosophy Revolution of the 4th century BC usher in TL3 in the rich port cities around the Mediterraneum, with TL2 persisting for a long time outside that favoured zone.

Rome was TL3 for much of its glory days and the Roman East remained TL3 consistently until it became TL4 some time after being conquered by Muslims.

Much of Europe remained TL1 and TL2, with tiny pockets of TL3 where the Romans were. After the fall of Rome, those pockets mostly disappered.

There is no inexorable march of progress towards our illustrious selves. Tech levels go up and down for much of history, not just upwards. They trend upwards for our reference culture, but that's different.*

*And selection bias.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

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I've always had the Hellenic Natural Philosophy Revolution of the 4th century BC usher in TL3 in the rich port cities around the Mediterraneum, with TL2 persisting for a long time outside that favoured zone.

Rome was TL3 for much of its glory days and the Roman East remained TL3 consistently until it became TL4 some time after being conquered by Muslims.

Much of Europe remained TL1 and TL2, with tiny pockets of TL3 where the Romans were. After the fall of Rome, those pockets mostly disappered.

There is no inexorable march of progress towards our illustrious selves. Tech levels go up and down for much of history, not just upwards. They trend upwards for our reference culture, but that's different.*

*And selection bias.
Yeah, we had this discussion some other thread, and we came to that conclusion: Rome is TL3, Charlemagne is TL 2. And its not about mathmatics and astronomy. Its about engineering, about communication, transportation, and infrastructure.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:48 AM   #9
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Default Re: We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

Well, is not that simple. It depends.

Some historians are Romanophiles. Which means that they have a "too much positive" view of Rome, and see the Middle Ages as a Dark Age, savage and ignorant. Others, like Le Goff or Duby, have a less pessimistic view of the Middle Ages. It's not exactly a consensus on the matter, I think.

I mean, sure, the Romans might have the best engineers, builders and architects, at least for a time. Yes, in some ways, maybe you could consider that the Romans had a more advanced technology than the Germanic tribes, at least in some fields. But I'm not sure how to translate this in GURPS terms. Could be either a TL 2 Roman against a TL 1 Germanic tribes or a TL 3 roman and a TL 2 Germanic tribes. Or even a split TL: in some fields the Romans could have a better TL, but they could be equal.

Some historians suggest that the Germanic tribes had more advanced weapons that the Roman, even if the rest of their technology does not compare to the Romans.

But either way, as far I know,this discussion only applies to the Early Middle Ages. After the XI-XII century, Europe practically begins to recover and perhaps surpass the Roman's technological achievements.

And remember: according to Low-Tech, TL 3 covers many technological inventions, even the most primitive firearms.

(PS: Sorry of any english mistakes)
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Last edited by Arcanjo7Sagi; 02-11-2015 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:51 AM   #10
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Default Re: We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

GURPS already has realistic ways of handling technology above TL, by pricing it higher and making it less generally awesome. Things above the current TL are entirely allowed to exist, they're just not typical of such a society.

Also, the idea that TL is even across a vast empire is only true in the modern world.

As an aside, where did the "We're gonna have to rethink X" snowclone come from, and why do people willfully use it, in an apparently non-ironic way, since it basically means "I'm wrong about this"?
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