Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-10-2024, 03:26 AM   #1
tarask
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Paris, France
Default Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

Hello community.
The power stone spell costs 20 FP for power stone 1 on a gem.
If we cast the spell on 5 times, we have a gem with power stone 5.

My question is how to manage the "Item's Power" if we have done 2 times a critical success.

Knowing that a critical enchantment allows us to increase the "item's power" by 2d.

Thank you for your answers.

Tarask
tarask is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2024, 12:57 PM   #2
Rolando
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Panama
Default Re: Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

For simplicity I would let the item retain the higher power for the rest of the enchantments.

Others may get more detailed and have most of the energy stored be at one level and then the two critically enchanted have higher level, but I don't find that level of detail relevant most of the time, if ever.

Or you may do something else and keep the power level but increase the amount of energy stored to increase, as a GM you may decide other effects for a critical success, a player will probably prefer more energy than more power unless low magic areas are common.

Also you may add helpful quirks or other benefits instead of detailed power levels for each point of energy stored...
Rolando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2024, 02:11 PM   #3
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarask View Post
Hello community.
The power stone spell costs 20 FP for power stone 1 on a gem.
If we cast the spell on 5 times, we have a gem with power stone 5.

My question is how to manage the "Item's Power" if we have done 2 times a critical success.

Knowing that a critical enchantment allows us to increase the "item's power" by 2d.

Thank you for your answers.

Tarask
What is the source for "a critical enchantment allows us to increase the 'item's power' by 2d"? Casting Spells (Magic p. 7) says only that the spell "works especially well.", "there is never an energy cost" for a spell that was cast with a critical success, and that "Details are up to the GM, who should be both generous and creative." Ceremonial Magic (Magic p. 12) says nothing about critical successes at all and neither does the text for Enchantment Spells, which merely notes that Ceremonial Magic is the only way to cast any Enchantment spell, or the Enchant spell itself, which is a prerequisite for the Powerstone spell (both Magic p. 56). The Powerstone spell itself (Magic p.69-70) does not indicate that any extra Power is bestowed by a critical success and makes a point that suggests that that would not be one of the outcomes of the GM being generous and creative. No matter how successful the spell is, even if one were allowed 2d "extra Power" the total Power if a stone cannot exceed its size. Thus if you had a 20 carat stone, its maximum capacity would be 20 and if you managed a critical success on the 19th casting you still couldn't exceed Power 20, no matter what your roll on 2d was. If you are going to allow 2d extra Power on a critical success, and I would be more inclined to limit it to 1d extra Power per critical success, it should be rolled immediately upon its occurrence since two simple failures in a row prevent any further growth in capacity of the Powerstone.

Again, my own inclination would be for a critical success to do nothing for the capacity of the Powerstone, capping the capacity increase to just 1, whether it is a simple success or a critical success. Instead, I would either eliminate an acquired quirks of the stone or give it a small Perk of there are no quirks. I might even leave the acquired quirks alone and just give it a perk.
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2024, 09:43 PM   #4
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
What is the source for "a critical enchantment allows us to increase the 'item's power' by 2d"? .
Magic (4e) p.17 and similar places in earlier editions. It's a rule of very long standing.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2024, 12:55 AM   #5
tarask
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Paris, France
Default Re: Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
For simplicity I would let the item retain the higher power for the rest of the enchantments.

Others may get more detailed and have most of the energy stored be at one level and then the two critically enchanted have higher level, but I don't find that level of detail relevant most of the time, if ever.

Or you may do something else and keep the power level but increase the amount of energy stored to increase, as a GM you may decide other effects for a critical success, a player will probably prefer more energy than more power unless low magic areas are common.

Also you may add helpful quirks or other benefits instead of detailed power levels for each point of energy stored...
Thank you for your reply, which helped me understand.

So I have to understand that only power stone points achieved by critics are increased.

A wizard has enchantment to 15 and he casts 7 times power stone.
In the case of a low mana environment, an enchanted gem with 5 points with item's power 15(5 normal success) and 2 points at level 15+2d(2 critical sucess), only citrial successes above an item's power of 20 work.

As you rightly say, it's complicated to manage.

I'm thinking of keeping the best for the stone as a whole, which gave minor/medium/major improvements on the other critical successes.

Many thanks to all

Last edited by tarask; 02-11-2024 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Thank
tarask is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2024, 06:48 AM   #6
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Magic (4e) p.17 and similar places in earlier editions. It's a rule of very long standing.
Thank you, Fred. I hadn't exactly forgotten it, but I've never applied it to Powerstones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarask View Post
Thank you for your reply, which helped me understand.

So I have to understand that only power stone points achieved by critics are increased.

A wizard has enchantment to 15 and he casts 7 times power stone.
In the case of a low mana environment, an enchanted gem with 5 points with item's power 15(5 normal success) and 2 points at level 15+2d(2 critical sucess), only citrial successes above an item's power of 20 work.

As you rightly say, it's complicated to manage.

I'm thinking of keeping the best for the stone as a whole, which gave minor/medium/major improvements on the other critical successes.

Many thanks to all
Thanks to Fred's answer, I can now give you a better answer than my previous one.

Power is the effective skill with which the spell is cast, not the capacity of the Powerstone, so it doesn't matter when you make your 2d rolls for critical success and it doesn't necessarily do anything to the stone. If the effective skill is 15, then an increase to Power of 4 or less only raises effective skill to 19 which has no effect on the properties of the Powerstone. An increase in Power of 5 or more will make the effective skill 20 or more which will alter the Powerstone for that 1 (one) point of capacity making it available in a low-mana area. Each critical success roll is made separately, so depending on the results of the 2d roll you would end up with a Powerstone that has capacity 20 in normal mana and either 0, 1 or 2 points of energy available in a low mana area. Thus, the best case would be Powerstone 20 (2 in low mana).
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2024, 07:45 AM   #7
ehrbar
 
ehrbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarask View Post
Hello community.
The power stone spell costs 20 FP for power stone 1 on a gem.
If we cast the spell on 5 times, we have a gem with power stone 5.

My question is how to manage the "Item's Power" if we have done 2 times a critical success.

Knowing that a critical enchantment allows us to increase the "item's power" by 2d.

Thank you for your answers.

Tarask
There's actually a specific Kromm ruling on this that was collected in the old Magic Krommnotes:

Quote:
This is a special rule for Powerstone: If a critical success enhanced Power level, then the whole stone is boosted.
__________________
Steven E. Ehrbar

GURPS Technomancer resources. Including The Renegade Mage's Unofficial GURPS Magic Spell Errata, last updated July 7th, 2023.

Last edited by ehrbar; 02-11-2024 at 09:26 AM.
ehrbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2024, 02:44 AM   #8
tarask
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Paris, France
Default Re: Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

Following on from this, we've imagined a gem with 5 point of power stone and an item's power to 15.
But if a second bettter wizard cast the power stone spell with his spell level 20, would the power stone become an item's power of 20 and not 15? For all the gem ?

Sorry for the crazy questions.

Thanks for all
tarask is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2024, 04:06 AM   #9
bocephus
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarask View Post
Following on from this, we've imagined a gem with 5 point of power stone and an item's power to 15.
But if a second bettter wizard cast the power stone spell with his spell level 20, would the power stone become an item's power of 20 and not 15? For all the gem ?

Sorry for the crazy questions.

Thanks for all

All of this is a perfect example of why I have been house Ruling the Enchanting and enchantments for a long time. RAW is so illogical, complex and convoluted that I still can't figure out after a very long time. (I still don't get the RAW Powerstone rules). I am watching this thread hoping someone finally explains it in a way that sticks for me.


On a sidebar rant that is related but should not be responded to in this thread....

I like the GURPS Magic book, it just should have been given a full overhaul for 4e. It's one of the biggest gaps IMO for GURPS moving forward is presenting a more cohesive and understandable magic system that someone can just pick up and use. All the other stuff has been an attempt to fix the weaknesses in that book for decades.

Magic spells should have a point based process for building and then a collection of examples that people can just pull straight from or understand how to create their own effect.
bocephus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2024, 09:43 AM   #10
ehrbar
 
ehrbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Magic - Successive Enchantment of Power Stone Spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarask View Post
Following on from this, we've imagined a gem with 5 point of power stone and an item's power to 15.
But if a second bettter wizard cast the power stone spell with his spell level 20, would the power stone become an item's power of 20 and not 15? For all the gem ?
I believe the answer is no. The ruling specifies "If a critical success", and then the rest of the Krommnote explains that the idea behind a critical success boosting the power of the whole stone is by analogy to the way that a failure quirks the whole stone.

So, a better wizard casting Powerstone at a higher level just gives you a stone with split power ratings.

****

Why, yes, that then gives us an "Okay, my stone has 5 points at Power 15, 1 point at Power 20. If the next casting of Powerstone is at level 15, and crit successes, what kind of stone do I have now?" scenario.

I personally think the best answer is to add the result of the 2d roll from a critical success to all the Powerstone enchantments on the stone, since that is the most consistent equivalent to what a quirk does. Basically, each time a critical success is rolled when enchanting a Powerstone, mark it down as a "perk" that adds to the power level of every casting of Powerstone on the stone, past and future. Multiple power-increase perks would stack just like multiple quirks stack.
__________________
Steven E. Ehrbar

GURPS Technomancer resources. Including The Renegade Mage's Unofficial GURPS Magic Spell Errata, last updated July 7th, 2023.
ehrbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.