GURPS TRAVELLER and 4e

[hal]

Hi all,
I'm running into some minor hiccups here and there, and I thought I'd mention them as I try to set up for a campaign set in Trojan Reaches.

The problem in a nutshell is that GURPS TRAVELLER was originally written in 3e rules, using GURPS ULTRATECH in 3e, and developing projectile and laser weapons using GURPS VEHICLES 2nd edition.

For now, Trying to shift back and forth between 3e material in Ultratech and 4e material in Ultratech is proving to be a minor headache. :(

For example, GURPS 4e treats starting wealth as being 75,000 for TL 11 (which is nominally supposed to be what GURPS TL 12 is in GURPS TRAVELLER for 3e), which in turn, starts with TL 12 starting wealth as 50,000. So right off the bat, there is a 50% increase in wealth for 4e that was not there for 3e. No biggie, I'll muddle through that.

At one point in time, the player whom I'm working closely with to get this campaign up and running, wanted to start using a 15mm Heavy pistol. I reminded him that in real life, a 15mm pistol is akin to a .59 caliber round, and that it will buck like a mule not unlike the Desert Eagle pistol in real life. He was looking forward to a ST 11 weapon that did that level of damage to which I said "um, no, that's getting bucked up to ST 12". Between the muzzle velocity having to be at least equal to that of the Desert Eagle, its Round would have to be at least the same mass as that of a Desert Eagle if not a little bit heavier (either that or the round would be required to be shorter than a standard bullet for the .50 caliber desert eagle pistol. Fortunately, I have access to Doug's formulas for how much damage a given weapon should do - and access to a formula for determining muzzle velocity etc for use with non-real world bullets.

But the other stuff? Ye GADS! Something as simple as a Power Holster has major differences between 3e and 4e rules. :(

I don't much worry about absolute conversions per se - but I will NOT be using the GURPS INTERSTELLAR WARS largely because of the information provided by David Pulver about converting GURPS 3e Tech Levels to 4e Tech levels. Traveller Tech Level 14 and 15 each end up being GURPS TECH level 11.

Breakdown is as follow:

TTL = Traveller Tech Level. GTL = GURPS 4e Tech Level

TTL               GTL
8                  9
9,10              10
11,12,13          11
14                12
15,16             12^

Ultimately? I think I'm better off sticking with 3e's tech levels instead of 4e's, and where necessary, converting the Rules structure for any specific item to 4e if they exist in both GURPS ULTRATECH for 3e and 4e.

Weapons I"m converting on a case by case basis. Batteries will be as given in 3e, not 4e. Robots will be built using Robots rules, and computer complexities will remain as they were in 3e instead of 4e. This way, I can still use GURPS ROBOTS more or less unchanged.

I also plan on redoing the armor from 3e using the 4e Pyramid rules, but I can't help but wish I could utilize the rules almost unchanged. We'll see.

Hal

[Fred Brackin]

[QUOTE=hal;2514757

For now, Trying to shift back and forth between 3e material in Ultratech and 4e material in Ultratech is proving to be a minor headache. :(

But the other stuff? Ye GADS! Something as simple as a Power Holster has major differences between 3e and 4e rules. :(

Hal[/QUOTE]

You probably shouldn't try and go back and forth from 3e to 4e. Pick one and stick with that.

As for the Power Holster the major difference was that the 3e one (which actually goes back to the first edition of Gurps Space and Gurps 1e) wasn't "equipment" it was an intelligence test and only people who failed the test tried to use it.

By contrast, the 4e Power Holster is simply the best available equipment for the Fast Draw Skill (and lighter too).

That's the reason to use 4e equipment. It has better rules and isn't so bizarrely heavy either

Of course the reason to regret leaving the 3e TLs behind is that the 4e ones are cramped and sadly bereft of VE2.

[Rupert]

For my GURPS 4e Traveller game I use 4e's Ultra-tech, and just eyeball whether a given piece of gear is a good fit or not.

The biggest lack is a 4e-compliant spaceship design system that doesn't try and make either Type-S and Free Traders the same size or Free Traders and Subsidised Merchants the same size (neither outcome is very useful). Spaceships is a great little design system, but it lacks resolution, and I'd like something 4e native that's got some extra resolution.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Rupert

The biggest lack is a 4e-compliant spaceship design system that doesn't try and make either Type-S and Free Traders the same size or Free Traders and Subsidised Merchants the same size (neither outcome is very useful). Spaceships is a great little design system, but it lacks resolution, and I'd like something 4e native that's got some extra resolution.

The key problem to translating Traveller into Spaceships is that the first is absolutely volume-based and the second is absolutely mass-based. G:Traveller ships have mass numbers so you can try and work with that but the more literal you try and be the harder it's going to be to do.

I love Spaceships but I work with it as it came to me. I don't try and stretch it to fit other things. That 1-3-10 scaling is very fundamental to the system.

I might borrow names and illustrations from Traveller to use in Spaceships but i wouldn't try and translate the numbers. Making ships in Spaceships is so easy that it would be much easier to start over with native Spaceships designs.

[hal]

The ultimate decision that we went by was this:

Use the GURPS 3e ULTRATECH rules as presented to determine the GURPS TECH level as mandated for use with GURPS TRAVELLER. Then use the GURPS 4e rules for each individual item providing it has its counterpart in the GURPS 3e version of ULTRATECH. Thus, we're able to use the original intent of GURPS TRAVELLER. :)

As for ship building rules - I never did like the Spinal Mount rules as presented in GURPS TRAVELLER 2nd edition, nor in GURPS TRAVELLER: STARSHIPS. After talking to a couple of individuals on the FACEBOOK versions of Traveller Forums, I will revisit my original premise for the spinal mounts and translate what was originally in Classic Traveller's HIGH GUARD and work from there. One key rule in HIGH GUARD was this:

"All spinal mount weapons which hit and penetrate inflict one extra damage roll (on each appropriate table) for each letter by which their size exceeds 9. For example, a particle accelerator with a code of A gets 2 rolls on both the surface explosion and radiation tables; a factor of B receives 3 rolls, etc."

This strongly suggests that the Spinal mount is a high rate of fire weapon in my eyes. When you couple the fact that larger spinal mounts have an easier time to hit their targets - and well, both suggest that Spinal Mounts really should have been included in GURPS TRAVELLER in the vein of High Rates of Fire and relatively lower damage per hit.

Why?

Because Meson Screens could effectively block the incoming Meson spinal hits if the meson attack factor was relatively low (aka Spinal mounts of A or B were easier to defend against than spinal mounts R or S).

Spinal bays on the other hand, had to be SMALLER yet - and they violated the minimum energy rule as given in the early GURPS TRAVELLER books.

So, my task for my weekend will be to rebuild my original spreadsheet that I used to make up those spinal mounts, and then send them to two individuals who would like to use them.

If there is any interest in what I produce, let me know either via private email or here, and I'll make it a point to post it on these forums as well as the Facebook ones.

If you are interested - I can tell you those RPG forums on FACEBOOK that exist involving Traveller and you can join them as well. :)

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The key problem to translating Traveller into Spaceships is that the first is absolutely volume-based and the second is absolutely mass-based. G:Traveller ships have mass numbers so you can try and work with that but the more literal you try and be the harder it's going to be to do.

The trick is to look at how much jump fuel constrains designs, because that's the key feature of Traveller ships. I settled on one fuel system per parsec, as once you allow for Spaceships requiring quite a lot of 'stuff' (control systems, armour, etc.) before a ship looks much like a Traveller one any more than that and things get very tight. This is a bit generous at the high end, and often a bit stingy at the other end. Jump drives are all one system in size, and vary by price and TL required.

I love Spaceships but I work with it as it came to me. I don't try and stretch it to fit other things. That 1-3-10 scaling is very fundamental to the system.

I love it too, but as you say, 1-3-10 scaling is built in, and thus Traveller's small starships, one a 100-200-400-600-800 range (mostly) just don't translate well if they fill similar roles (like Free Traders and subbies, or a Seeker and Free Trader set up for mining) and aren't far apart in size.