Affect Self Only Limitation

[Azrael]

I just to want to say, I was not trying to be a Munchkin. I'm just new to applying system and looking at options. And what's fair or not is relative. Is magic balanced with advantages? Some would argue its not. Some would argue does not have to be. So why can't an affliction-based form of magic be used if it suits the way magic works in a particular setting? If this is the only form of magic available, and it is designed by the GM, what's the issue?

That being said, I wouldn't allow Alternative Attacks to be used if I were building a system meant to be balanced with other advantages. But if I wanted that form of magic to be cheap I might. I haven't decided for sure on that. In the end, the entire practice was only theoretical because I decided to go with something else. I'm not throwing the idea out though.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Azrael

I just to want to say, I was not trying to be a Munchkin. I'm just new to applying system and looking at options. And what's fair or not is relative. Is magic balanced with advantages? Some would argue its not. Some would argue does not have to be. So why can't an affliction-based form of magic be used if it suits the way magic works in a particular setting? If this is the only form of magic available, and it is designed by the GM, what's the issue?

That being said, I wouldn't allow Alternative Attacks to be used if I were building a system meant to be balanced with other advantages. But if I wanted that form of magic to be cheap I might. I haven't decided for sure on that. In the end, the entire practice was only theoretical because I decided to go with something else. I'm not throwing the idea out though.

Not to argue that you can create magic and do things how you will. But to directly answer your questions, making magic far too cheap makes it the best and eventually only option. Gurps Magic makes magic pretty much the only good option for characters when compared to anything else, aka The Wizard Rule: Why be good at combat when you can invalidate it?

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

If you going to go that far down the buffing path and avoided getting spanked by your GM on grounds of being a munchkin you might as well keep going and make it even cheaper by copying Sakura Kinomoto and Build each ability as Gadgets that let Summon allies who have the provide the Buffs.

I think this is overstating things. In many situations, especially "Magic as Powers" this is quite common.

Originally Posted by Azrael

I just to want to say, I was not trying to be a Munchkin. I'm just new to applying system and looking at options. And what's fair or not is relative.

I think accusations of munchkinism should wait until a completed build can be evaluated.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Bruno

The OP seems to have a plan involving Beneficial Affliction, Malediction, and Cosmic: No Roll Required. Which admittedly sounds like it's not going to be so cheap any more and I don't see how that Cosmic: No Roll Required is valid even with the Beneficial Malediction Affliction wonkyness.

On Psionic Campaigns, p. 26, in the section Infallible Psi that Cosmic: No Roll Required can be placed on an Affliction, including (and most usefully, perhaps) a Beneficial one. The effect of this is that although you still need to roll (to determine duration), a failure is a MoS of 0, so you still succeed.

This could be stacked with Malediction, which allows the target to choose not to resist. You could also add Fixed Duration, and then the "attacker's" roll for the Affliction isn't even necessary even for determining duration.

This way, with Cosmic: No Roll Required, +100%, Malediction 1, +150%, and Fixed Duration, +0%, you could have a Beneficial Affliction that never requires any dice rolls as long as the target is willing. If you are the target of your own buffing, it's presumable you won't want to resist.

Although I have to say that a combined enhancement value of +250% just to make an Affliction-based ability that doesn't require any dice rolls, for something beneficial (and especially if it's meant only for the self), seems a bit too high. Mainly because the only benefit you're getting or want from Malediction is the "targets can choose not to resist" clause. I guess this could be combined with other attack limitations like Contact Agent, Blood Agent, or something along those lines to make it a bit cheaper.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I think this is overstating things. In many situations, especially "Magic as Powers" this is quite common.

It's not the have affliction based magic system that I have an issue with. My issue is taken Tool who purpose to let you effect others with a side effect of effecting your self then try to make it cheaper by making it self only.

They system has other ways of making temporary self only advantages

Note I liked Card Capture Sakura so my pointing out an affliction based magic concept that was even cheaper that doesn't even need hypothetical new limitation to pull off wasn't a complete dismissive of the idea.

Though Honestly Self only would be Accessibility limitation look up the pricing recommendations for them in Basic (B110) and Powers (p. 99)

While Self only is :"less than 1% of the population of the world" (-50%) bu on the other hand it also an easy accessible target (-10%) as you are always there.

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

This way, with Cosmic: No Roll Required, +100%, Malediction 1, +150%, and Fixed Duration, +0%, you could have a Beneficial Affliction that never requires any dice rolls as long as the target is willing. If you are the target of your own buffing, it's presumable you won't want to resist.

Malediction 1 is worth 100%. Add this to Self Only -50% and you get +50%. It is still is more expensive compared to the actual advantage though. The extra cost is +15 character points, and we haven't even taken into account the limitations of afflictions.

Edit:
Here's a potential build for a 100 point advantage that tries to give limitations to equalize things. Affliction (Advantage +1000%, Malediction +100%, Costs FP -5%, Self Only -50%, Fixed Duration +0%, Reduced Duration 1/3 -10%) [114]. Advantage (Costs FP -5%, Req Will Roll -5%, Requires Extra Time -10%) [80]. This gives us a net of +34 character points for the Affliction-Based version.

This will extra cost would be +16 for a 10 point advantage, +18 for a 20 point advantage, and +24 for a 50 point advantage.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Azrael

Edit:
Here's a potential build for a 100 point advantage that tries to give limitations to equalize things. Affliction (Advantage +1000%, Malediction +100%, Costs FP -5%, Self Only -50%, Fixed Duration +0%, Reduced Duration 1/3 -10%) [114]. Advantage (Costs FP -5%, Req Will Roll -5%, Requires Extra Time -10%) [80]. This gives us a net of +34 character points for the Affliction-Based version.

This will extra cost would be +16 for a 10 point advantage, +18 for a 20 point advantage, and +24 for a 50 point advantage.

The OP was under the impression this cheese would get him a point cost advantage over regular abilities.

Say you want Altered Time Rate and Flight.

First way, you buy them as alternate abilities of each other:

• ATR (Costs FP, Req Will Roll, Requires Extra Time) [80],
• Flight (Costs FP, Req Will Roll, Requires Extra Time) [32] as an Alternate Ability - net cost 7 points after AA.

Total for the two is 87 points, and with a ready action you can turn off ATR and turn on Flight, or vice versa. If one ability is crippled, both are.


Second way, you buy them as regular advantages:

• ATR (Costs FP, Req Will Roll, Requires Extra Time) [80],
• Flight (Costs FP, Req Will Roll, Requires Extra Time) [32]

Total for the two is 112 - but you can have them both at the same time, in exchange for once a minute having to spend two Ready actions and two FP (and two Will rolls). If one ability is crippled, the other one is fine.

Same advantages via the Affliction route:

• Affliction (Altered Time Rate +1000%, Malediction +100%, Costs FP -5%, Self Only -50%, Fixed Duration +0%, Reduced Duration 1/3 -10%) [114]
• Affliction (Flight, +400%, Malediction +100%, Costs FP -5%, Self Only -50%, Fixed Duration +0%, Reduced Duration 1/3 -10%) [54] as an Alternate Ability of Affliction: ATR net cost of 11 points.

Total for the two is 125 - but you can have them both at the same time, in exchange for once a minute having to spend two Attack actions and two FP (and two will rolls). If one ability is crippled, both are.

[Bruno]

Let's extend the thought experiment and see if it gets cheaper with more abilities.

Add DR 10 (Force Field, +20%) to the list of abilities we want.

With the cluster of shared limitations, this adds 10 points to the first ability group - the alternate ability array. Total is 97 points, but you can only have one of the three on at once.

To the second group, the "Not An Alternate At All" vanilla ability group, it adds a cost of 50 points. Total cost is 162, but you can have all on at once and crippling one doesn't harm the others.

To the third group, the "Affliction Cheeze group" it adds a net cost of 13 points. Total cost is 138 points - and now we see the Cheeze kicking in. You can have all of them on at once, although it takes three actions every minute to keep them up (and 3 FP, and 3 will rolls). This is the same actions-of-maintenance cost you pay for the "vanilla" ability group #2 above, but the cost is crippling any of them cripples them all.

The more abilities (Especially the more expensive the abilities) you can talk the GM into allowing into the AA, the bigger the cost savings get, but the more danger from mass-crippling.

If you go for the more expensive route of Cosmic: NNR in combo with Malediction to exploit the Benediction rule, it takes more points sunk into the array before the Affliction based build pulls ahead, but it still pulls ahead.

[Bruno]

In Summery, the Self Only Affliction/Alternate Ability build is more points efficient, but you have the unshakeable limitation that your abilities could all be crippled in one swell foop.

As a GM, you should not allow this build unless you have ability crippling in your game, and you are willing to hit players with it. Otherwise the player is getting a limitation that doesn't limit them - like Accessability: Only Underground for a game taking place purely in the Underdark.

[vierasmarius]

I would point out that we have at least one example (Bard Songs, DF11:20) where Alternative Ability Afflictions "shut off" when another AA is switched to. I know this is DF, and thus not intended as a universal interpretation, but it at least points to one way the GM can justify curtailing this build if it gets out of hand. Judging by the point cost, it may be balanced to allow up to two, maybe three concurrent Alt Afflictions, since that seems to match what you could achieve with the vanilla advantages. If he wants more simultaneously active buffs, he'll need to be the next-most-expensive Affliction for full cost to get more "slots".