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Old 05-21-2016, 05:11 PM   #21
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by onetrikpony View Post
The question assumes that the SM discount is a bad thing?

I don't understand the case against the discount. Why shouldn't +SM grant a discount to +ST?
Because ST doesn't really become less valuable as you get larger.

High ST costs too much, and high SM is probably something you should get points back for. But the discount to ST for high SM doesn't address either of those problems well.
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Old 05-21-2016, 06:03 PM   #22
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Because ST doesn't really become less valuable as you get larger.

High ST costs too much, and high SM is probably something you should get points back for. But the discount to ST for high SM doesn't address either of those problems well.
I would argue otherwise.

As you get larger armour and weapons you can effectively wield get heavier, requiring more strength just to carry them.

A sm0 fencer and a sm+2 fencer given equal but properly sized equipment are going to need radically different strength values.

Discounting the SM+2 fenders fencers St means that being a sm+2 fencer carries a cost (in the form of the required new St value) but, it is less than being a sm0 fencer who happens to be as strong as a giant.

Similarly an eagel can snatch up a mouse for dinner. An albatross a fish, but without radically increased St the rock cannot carry it's elephant quarry home. And it needs a meal that size to survive.
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Old 05-21-2016, 06:13 PM   #23
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by onetrikpony View Post
The question assumes that the SM discount is a bad thing?

I don't understand the case against the discount. Why shouldn't +SM grant a discount to +ST?
It essentially penalizes large characters that aren't super strong.
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Old 05-21-2016, 06:18 PM   #24
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

Cheaper strength for larger creatures make sense to me. What I am wondering is whether strength should be cheaper for everyone once out of normal human range.

For example pay for strength normally up to 20 and then at half cost for strength over 20, including for strength based traits like hit points, lifting and striking strength. Then apply size discounts on top of that half price discount. So a normal sized super with ST 100 would cost 500 points and this would reduce to 450 points for size modifier +1.
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Old 05-21-2016, 06:22 PM   #25
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
It essentially penalizes large characters that aren't super strong.
Seems like a dumb idea to have large creatures with insufficient strength to move their great bulk around. If the system discourages silly builds then that is a plus, not a negative.
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Old 05-21-2016, 07:22 PM   #26
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by Boomerang View Post
Seems like a dumb idea to have large creatures with insufficient strength to move their great bulk around. If the system discourages silly builds then that is a plus, not a negative.
Except that strength is your excess power after moving your bulk around.

Are balloons unrealistic?
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Old 05-21-2016, 07:31 PM   #27
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Except that strength is your excess power after moving your bulk around.

Are balloons unrealistic?
But not your ability to move around things scaled to your size, liked tools, weapons, and food. It should be easier via some method for a larger creature to be able to effectively move about those things.

Balloons are an effective way to life and move heavy weights, I would expect a balloon PC to have a lot of vulnerabilities, but be quite strong so as to lift, carry, and fly with heavy objects (relative to a sm0 human)
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Old 05-21-2016, 09:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Seems like a dumb idea to have large creatures with insufficient strength to move their great bulk around. If the system discourages silly builds then that is a plus, not a negative.
So humans of under St 10 are silly too? Since most realistic people fit that, why should I be penalized for making a realistic larger than man creature?
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Old 05-21-2016, 11:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
I would argue otherwise.

As you get larger armour and weapons you can effectively wield get heavier, requiring more strength just to carry them.

A sm0 fencer and a sm+2 fencer given equal but properly sized equipment are going to need radically different strength values.

Discounting the SM+2 fenders fencers St means that being a sm+2 fencer carries a cost (in the form of the required new St value) but, it is less than being a sm0 fencer who happens to be as strong as a giant.

Similarly an eagel can snatch up a mouse for dinner. An albatross a fish, but without radically increased St the rock cannot carry it's elephant quarry home. And it needs a meal that size to survive.
Yes, being strong is perhaps more desirable for big characters. Which is why I said: "ST doesn't really become less valuable as you get larger."

(I agree that it should be much cheaper to be a giant strong creature, but I think that the rule we have is both grossly inadequate and badly misdirected.)
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Old 05-22-2016, 01:44 AM   #30
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Default Re: The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

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So humans of under St 10 are silly too? Since most realistic people fit that, why should I be penalized for making a realistic larger than man creature?
How far below average?

I think it is a bad idea for adventurers to have below average strength. For my Vietnam-American War campaign the lowest strength was 11. Any lower than that and you would be heavily encumbered just carrying your standard equipment (where equipment issued is based on historic accounts of what they actually used).

I enforce encumbrance rules, the lowest strength anyone has ever tried in my games is 9 and they frequently encountered problems with a stat that low, which was only fair when they have 10 more points than everyone else to spend elsewhere.
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