Less than one hex monster

[hcobb]

Or a two step process where the rats need to latch on before chewing?

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

You can't engage a rat

What in the ITL rules makes you believe this rule does not apply to rats but does to all other creatures?

In ITL larger creatures may engage smaller creatures without themselves being engaged. See (ITL 106) "In general, a smaller figure (or group) must
occupy more than 1/3 as many hexes as does the larger figure,
in order to engage it." This is about multi-hex combatants vs single hex combatants. While it is not the exact same situation, it is the closest to it.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Or a two step process where the rats need to latch on before chewing?

That's possible, something like the volts of Old School Monsters, but it would rather complicate the combat.

Axly's solution also complicates rat attacks in ways I don't like. I understand why he does so. He doesn't want a houserule that differs from the latest errata (two rats per hex, with HTH being an explicit exception to stacking in general). I just don't think I want a nuisance combat to be overburdened with complications. The whole point of rats having a 50/50 chance to hit to simplify rolling dice is to simplify, after all.

Of course, if you take the erratum at face value (and don't use the HTH rules as Axly suggests), the dice-rolling trick suggested in RAW just becomes a lot less important. You'd never roll more than two dice, for a possible hit total of two.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

While the 1 hex figure does not engage the rat(s), neither do the rats engage the 1 hex figure, at least not as I've played it. It's up to the figure to decide between standing in the same hex stomping and swatting, or to keep moving. Option (n) does not apply. Choose to Move full MA, or Move 1/2 MA and Attack one rat, or stand your ground while attacking one rat and stomping another. But ending movement in a hex full of rats is akin to ending movement in a Fire hex as I've played it -- that's what you really don't want to do. Come to a stop in a hex full of rats, they'll all try to bite you during the Action Phase. Keep moving if you can, try to out maneuver the rats and any other enemies at the same time, try to help friends where you can, and just hope to all those old forgotten gods that that door at the end of the tunnel isn't locked.

I've been thinking about this suggestion, Steve. If this is how you play it, perhaps you have some experience to share.

It seems to me that rats would almost never have a chance to attack, with the exception of particularly tight quarters (and especially if they come from both sides of a corridor). Here's my reasoning:

(1) Players go first in movement. All characters move so that they are six hexes from the nearest rats and can't be hit.

(2) Players go second in movement. Rats surround one character as much as possible, with a mass entering his hex and the others trying to take up all the open hexes they can. If the character is not engaged, he's free to move away instead of shifting. He can move a full move if he wants and can't be attacked.

I don't see any threat from the rats in most situations.

Now, we could amend your interpretation to say that a character is not engaged by adjacent rats and rats are not engaged by characters, but a character is engaged by rats in his hex. Thus, he has to shift in this situation. If there are enough rats to surround one character (even in spaces where other characters are), then the rats can get an attack.

Mind you, we still have an issue that the current RAW limit of 2 rats per hex makes a rat attack a non-event for anyone with leather or better, but I've given up on that rule as untenable.

RAW regarding engagement: I have to agree with Axly that the RAW rules don't imply rats are free from engagement. They do imply, I think, that rats do not engage from an adjacent hex, but that they do engage when in the same hex. I don't think it's a bad houserule that one can't engage a swarm, but it would be a houserule.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

What in the ITL rules makes you believe this rule does not apply to rats but does to all other creatures?

In ITL larger creatures may engage smaller creatures without themselves being engaged. See (ITL 106) "In general, a smaller figure (or group) must occupy more than 1/3 as many hexes as does the larger figure,
in order to engage it." This is about multi-hex combatants vs single hex combatants. While it is not the exact same situation, it is the closest to it.

I don't see this as very close to the same situation at all. It's more about micro-hex combatants, and a multitude of them coming all at once, vs a single hex combatant. I see a qualitative difference, not just a quantitative one, between that and a single one hex combatant vs a multi-hex figure. Or to put it another way, 1 rat out of a hoard of charging rats isn't going to feel threatened by the weapon in the hand of a man at a distance of one hex, a distance substantially larger than any 1 rat itself.

As mentioned elsewhere in ITL, stopping for engagement depends on the threat posed by the figure you are approaching. The barbarian hulk can pass though the little old lady's front hex, and there's not nearly the size differential between those two "combatants" as there is between a rat and a human. And the 1 hex figure's sword or spear just isn't going to be seen as a threat by the rat -- maybe if they were smarter. And heck, the weapon is too far above the rat's head to even be noticed. I'd probably make a rat swarm stop for engagement when it reached the front hex of a cat, they know what those fangs and claws can do and they'd all be on the same eye level, but a pair of ankles still feet away is not what I'd count as a deterrent.

There are other small creatures in ITL that aren't considered to engage a person until they enter that figure's hex. While I see it was never explicitly mentioned in regards to rats, that would be my inspiration for this take on it.

Oops, meant to quote something from phiwum here too but forgot to click on it!

He makes the point he'd still consider the one hex figure to be engaged by the rats once they entered the same hex and climbed/jumped on the defender. He's right and I probably played it that way back in the day as well, it's just been a long time. And the rats would be engaged by whomever they climbed on, but not any rats in the adjacent hexes, even if they were front hexes.

The old wargamer's term for what Melee calls the "front hexes" is the ZOC (short for Zone of Control). It's where the presence and influence of one combat unit logically prevents the free movement of an opposing unit.

Does a 1-hex human shaped figure exert that Zone of Control over a swarm of rats from 4 feet away? I just don't feel it can. It might actually be easier to heard kittens.

[phiwum]

I said that Steve's rule that rats and other swarm critters are not engaged is not supported by RAW. As far as I've seen, this is still true.

However, that rule sounded real familiar to me so I poked around. I found both Lars and Henry suggesting the same rule. It seemed to me that Henry was reporting as if it was RAW, but Lars sounded more like it was his personal interpretation, that is, a house rule.

So, Steve's engagement rule is similar to that used by some others.

I'm thinking that so far I kinda like Steve's rules for swarm critters. I'll probably try it out.

Let me see if I have the gist of it:

(1) Swarm critters do not engage nor get engaged by adjacent foes.

(2) Swarm critters do engage and are engaged when sharing a hex with a foe.

(3) There is some stacking limitation between two and infinity, inclusive on both ends.

(4) Swarm critters in the same hex as an adversary do NOT cling to him when he moves (as a slime does).

It's fairly simple and still encourages the people to try to retreat in the face of a swarm. Rats are stupid, so I don't think I'll make them purposely surround at first, but instead hit all the closest targets. I think this works pretty well.

The problem with "sticky" rats and spiders is that we're simultaneously playing them as if they're on the person and also on the floor (where they can be stomped). This avoids that little dissonance.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by phiwum

I said that Steve's rule that rats and other swarm critters are not engaged is not supported by RAW. As far as I've seen, this is still true.

However, that rule sounded real familiar to me so I poked around. I found both Lars and Henry suggesting the same rule. It seemed to me that Henry was reporting as if it was RAW, but Lars sounded more like it was his personal interpretation, that is, a house rule.

So, Steve's engagement rule is similar to that used by some others.

I'm thinking that so far I kinda like Steve's rules for swarm critters. I'll probably try it out.

Let me see if I have the gist of it:

(1) Swarm critters do not engage nor get engaged by adjacent foes.

(2) Swarm critters do engage and are engaged when sharing a hex with a foe.

(3) There is some stacking limitation between two and infinity, inclusive on both ends.

(4) Swarm critters in the same hex as an adversary do NOT cling to him when he moves (as a slime does).

It's fairly simple and still encourages the people to try to retreat in the face of a swarm. Rats are stupid, so I don't think I'll make them purposely surround at first, but instead hit all the closest targets. I think this works pretty well.

The problem with "sticky" rats and spiders is that we're simultaneously playing them as if they're on the person and also on the floor (where they can be stomped). This avoids that little dissonance.

Yes, Henry says it perfectly, but I'd forgotten that post. If it can't hit you from where it is, it can't engage you from where it is. I couldn't agree more.

But I love your numbered point summary phiwum. All rules should be so explicit and clear.

I only disagree there are no examples of something similar in RAW. Dragonets "must be in your hex to attack you", as do rats. Piranhakeets swarm in the illustration on ITL100, and are to be treated "just like" the bats. Bats in turn are to be treated like rats, which also must be in your hex to attack you. And spiders and wasps are to be treated "like rats and bats, respectively". These are all swarming critters, and none are allowed to make attacks from adjacent hexes. If one doesn't have to stop short of its target before attacking, nor initiate HTH to make its attack, then none do.

But back to the rats, you had an earlier point I never got back to, where because of the turn sequence, and without the usual engagement rule, you feared rats wouldn't be a serious threat except perhaps in close quarters.

But do any of us want rats to be a real threat outside of close quarters? I much prefer them not to be. The trick is to keep them very harmless in most situations while moderately dangerous in tight spots. I think we achieve that. The party trying to out-maneuver them in a corridor or tunnel is only as fast as it's slowest member, whereas the rats are always MA 10. (They should probably be faster -- there's a lot of them here in Chicago right now, and when they're flitting about the streets at night they move like bullets! MA of 14 wouldn't be unreasonable; they couldn't sustain it in open spaces, but again I ain't worried about open spaces.) Even at MA 10 though a party will have trouble staying ahead of them if it can't win initiative every turn. Those without armor can sustain the same speed as the rats, but the rest may well get overtaken, especially if they opt to take any option that holds them to half MA.

"Sorry Thork, the rest of us have decided to wait for you outside. Don't worry, it only looks like 50 of them, and your chainmail is bound to stop all but a couple hits per turn. Just don't stop, don't trip, don't slip, and you'll be just fine! See you in 5 minutes!"

[phiwum]

Hey, Steve,

Let me clarify what I meant when I said there were no examples from RAW.

I think it's totally in line with RAW that rats do not engage from an adjacent hex. They can't attack, so they can't engage.

What is less clear is that rats can't be engaged from an adjacent hex. After all, the PC (let's assume) can surely attack the rat and hence in normal situations, we'd view him as engaging the rat.

Let's call the rat the "defender" and the other guy the "attacker", though the terms aren't quite appropriate. Engagement is usually defined in terms of the attacker. If the defender is in his front hexes and if the attacker poses a threat in some way, then the defender is engaged. I can't think of any rules offhand that give the defender a special status so that he's immune to engagement in the usual sense -- ignoring things like insubstantiality and so on. If the attacker can pose a threat, then the defender is engaged. (This even applies for slimes, who cannot engage but can be engaged as far as I can tell.)

Flying creatures are not an exception. They can simply decide whether to be in the front hexes of the attacker or above the hexes.

Of course, the thing about a swarm is that it's a swarm. It's hard to hold them off. So there's a story to be told about why rats aren't engaged from an adjacent hex, but it is definitely an exception to the usual rule without any precedent I know.

As far as the bit about your rules nerfing rats, your recent posts have alleviated my concern. You've said that rats engage when they enter the hex of the PC, in which case it's not so easy to run away from the swarm. So, I'm satisfied that rats will still be a nuisance.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Yes, Henry says it perfectly, but I'd forgotten that post. If it can't hit you from where it is, it can't engage you from where it is.

Hi Steve,
Thank you for explaining your way. I will give your way a try and get back to you.

Also, I do want to comment on the above quote. It supports what I was saying. Just like with Giants, the smaller creatures do not engage the large but the large creature does engage the smaller. I was saying rats entering your front hexes need to stop. Yes, I understand zone of control; I have been war gaming for nearly 50 years. Your front hexes are a place where you can kill rats, thus you are exerting zone of control and should then be able to force the rats to being engaged. And since the rats cannot hurt you, they do not force engagement on you.

If you thought I was saying the rats can engage you, then you misunderstood me.

And a separate issue is rats/spiders/etc clinging to you. In Deathtest, the spiders once in your hex are on you and remain with you while you move about. Are you saying that rats in your hex remain on the ground and nip at your toes? Since you said you can simply walk/run away from them once they are in your hex. Does this apply to spiders also?

[phiwum]

Ah, thanks, Axly, for mentioning the spider rules in Deathtest. I was wondering where the idea of sticky swarm critters came from.

Still, it's a bit inconsistent to say the spiders or rats are on you and also you can stomp them.