[Magic] Battlemages and their favourite spells - Page 4

SandmanBr · 02-02-2009, 07:14 AM

In a fantasy campaign with high points I used a mage with Create Animal + Enlarge, plus some other magic to boost de defense a giant wolf or lion can be very intimidating…

Not another shrubbery · 02-02-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lupo

- Missile spells: never take Fireball. Lighting is far better; reduced damage but improved Acc and 1/2, metal RD counts as 1 and, more importantly, the target must roll vs. HT - 1 for each 2 points of damage, or be Stunned.

Lightning certainly has its pluses (it also does Surge damage to electronics), but... It's harder to learn than Fireball, it does about 28% less damage per point of energy, and it behaves unpredictably around conductors. Fire spells are also usually more reliable in actually starting fires.

Xplo · 02-02-2009, 10:56 AM

Answering this question really depends on what role the mage plays in battle. Is he there to duel other mages? Is he a magically-trained infantryman? Or is he some kind of specialist - say, one to a unit, or a member of the special forces?

A duellist will want spells that can disrupt another mage - Body Control comes to mind - or that defend against whatever spells he might use. Information-gathering spells would be useful before the duel, to discover what spells the opponent might use.

(As an aside: I don't feel like Magic handles "mage duel" scenarios very well. As far as I can tell, the way these duels usually work is that each duellist has some way to counter every attack that the other might use. For instance, if A casts a flame jet, B might counter with a second flame jet to "beat it back", or a frost jet to cancel it out, or a forcefield or fire immunity to deflect or ignore the fire, or he might cast something on the opposing jet itself to turn it into a harmless spray of flowers. Winning such a duel depends on beating down the opponent with raw power, possibly fueled by desperation as one is on the brink of defeat, or wearing him down through superior skill, or striving in vain until someone gets lucky - also likely to award higher skill - or discovering a weakness in the opponent's offense or defense and exploiting it.

In GURPS, there are a limited number of blocking spells that would be useful in a mage duel.. and, with the exception of those spells, and sometimes a Dodge, each duellist must suffer the effects of the opposing attack in turn before they are able to counterattack. Spells that resist certain effects, such as fire or lightning, take long enough to cast that they're potentially useless unless you can start the duel with them already on.

...But I digress.)

Where were we? Oh right. Mages as common infantry realistically wouldn't exist, since you'd have to train a bunch of green recruits to use magic fairly quickly, in addition to all the other skills that new soldiers need to learn. It takes enough time to whip a bunch of irregular slobs into fighting shape, teach them the rudiments of discipline and organization, and give them the ability to kill the enemy with a spear or gun and the will to do so, without also taking several years to train them in the arcane arts.

If you want exceptions to this, then you either need to assume that magic is much easier to learn - perhaps eliminating prereq chains, and allowing faster learning in an intensive "magic boot camp" environment - or you need to assume that your soldiers are extremely long-lived, even ageless, and can therefore spend a few dozen or hundred years between wars learning new spells and keeping in practice. Such highly competent soldiers would likely act as specialists or special forces, though. Magic boot camps usually crank out Johnny One-Spells that only do one thing sorta-well and are really only good for lending your world a cheap veneer of fantasy color: instead of archers or riflemen, you have fireballers who do the exact same thing. Or instead of hoplites, you have flying hoplites. Oooooooo.

Specialists fill specific roles in a combat unit other than direct combat with the enemy. For instance, in a unit of swordsmen or spearmen, the mage might have missile spells, allowing him to act as a defensive sniper (he'll probably want to stay near his unit, and missile spells tend to be pretty flashy, so other sniping roles seem less likely.. although Stone Missile would be pretty hard to see in the dark.) Or, if he has Explosive Fireball, he can be the unit's artilleryman. Non-combat spells might be even more useful, though. Healing and curing spells would reduce casualties substantially as well as raising unit morale. Scouting or information gathering spells would be of limited use to a unit - might help you spot an ambush, maybe - but combined with communication spells to relay the information back to a commander this would turn any unit into a useful scouting unit, and allow a historically-unprecedented level of intelligence gathering and command-and-control. The ability to create or purify food and water would grant an enormous logistical advantage; an army that can create its own supplies at need can go anywhere, at any time, for as long as necessary, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. Entire wars could be won just by attacking enemy supply trains and waiting for them to starve to death (or desertion).

Special forces are badasses of the "Dungeon Fantasy PC" sort, and nearly anything and everything qualifies here. Buffing spells turn them into supersoldier killing machines who can mow down the enemy. Disguise, shapechanging, and stealth will allow them to slip through enemy lines and into sensitive areas. Assassination is obvious, but why not steal maps, communications, and other intelligence? How about plundering the enemy's cash reserves, spreading negative propaganda, or making symbolic attacks (such as sneaking into the enemy throne room and destroying the portraits of the king's ancestors, or blowing up the statue in the town square) to sap morale? Alternately, they could be used to clear strategic "hard" targets such as enemy walls and forts, so that regular troops can walk in and take possession. In this case, they'll want Destroy Air or poison gas-type spells, Mass Sleep, lots and lots of Create Fire, or anything else that can knock out a whole room in one shot, and a Wizard Eye or something similar to see which rooms need blasting. They should also have decent-to-excellent combat abilities (either magical or mundane), and if someone can create walls or forcefields (to seal off certain areas from attack or divide the enemy) and make holes in existing walls, so much the better. Special forces should have healing and food/water magic in any case, and if they have some communication and movement spells, all the better.

No matter what role your "battlemages" play, you should avoid taking spells that duplicate what ordinary people can do by hand. Give them spells that will grant important advantages that will be used a lot and can't be gotten any other way.

hal · 02-02-2009, 11:52 AM

In continuing with Xplo's theme...

One of the fun things that can be done is to look at the actual training period of the mage to see what is happening and when. For the fun of it? I'm going to start up a new thread on BATTLEMAGIC Academy and see how such an organization might go about training battle mages :)

Captain-Captain · 02-02-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandmanBr

In a fantasy campaign with high points I used a mage with Create Animal + Enlarge, plus some other magic to boost de defense a giant wolf or lion can be very intimidating…

Given a sufficient energy source Create Animal serves for every D&D summoning spell except those dealing with demons/solars/elementals.

Luke Bunyip · 02-02-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal

Aw shucks, and here I was gearing up to try and create a FUN warrior/mage for use with the Elves versus Banestorm orcs scenario...

Nine 75 point orcs plus one Orc leader at 112 points (ie 50% and 75% cost of mage) versus 1 Elven Mage of 150 points. Objective of the Orcs is to penetrate 50 miles into the woods. Objective of the Elf sentry/warrior is to deny the Orcs their victory conditions.

The test is to see how well such a mage MIGHT fare (or not) against such foes. ;)

Ah well, I'll behave.

:)

Ignore EVERYTHING I said :P

What spells would you give the leafmuncher? Are you going to do a run through? If so, I would love to hear how it goes.

Witchking · 02-02-2009, 03:27 PM

Of particular note and not previously mentioned...

If you are going to be facing mages (as an adventurer not so much on the battlefield) and they may/will be recurring enemies...

Seek and Tracer to allow you to locate and track them ambush is a wonderful thing if you are on the right side of it.

Scryguard and Conceal Magic I am running a mage atm and have mages as Enemy Disadvantage and these two spells can be kept running 24/7 and make you a black hole for magical info purposes (it comes to you but you dont emit any)...particullary devistating if both are on at once.

Magic Resistance the spell fairly proof against all but direct damage spells...

a few pennies for you....

Luke Bunyip · 02-02-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchking

Of particular note and not previously mentioned...

If you are going to be facing mages (as an adventurer not so much on the battlefield) and they may/will be recurring enemies...

Seek and Tracer to allow you to locate and track them ambush is a wonderful thing if you are on the right side of it.

Scryguard and Conceal Magic I am running a mage atm and have mages as Enemy Disadvantage and these two spells can be kept running 24/7 and make you a black hole for magical info purposes (it comes to you but you dont emit any)...particullary devistating if both are on at once.

Magic Resistance the spell fairly proof against all but direct damage spells...

a few pennies for you....

Ta muchly. Good points there. (Not to say the rest are not worthy, but this looks at magery at a operational level, rather than the purely tactical level we have discussed so far).

~~Figleaf23~~ · 02-02-2009, 04:19 PM

A couple of thoughts:

-Atmosphere Dome is a great way to end a seige.
-Materializing an elephant should be a nasty surprise to charging cavalry.

Gudiomen · 02-02-2009, 09:40 PM

I've found a combination of...

Create Fire
Shape Fire
Fast Fire

to be quite useful. It can be created close by, under enemies for immediate effect. Shaping it grants it 5 hex/sec mobility. It bypasses most of DR (although non enhanced damage is low), can be used close, far, defensively or tactically (to block way to allies or self, to block exits, etc). It also serves to do away with those pesky darkness penalties, or to eat away at obstacles while you fight in a more mundane fashion. Several mythic/fantasy creatures are vulnerable to it. It's also useful on a larger scale on the battlefield, where rolling pillars of flame can wreck havoc on enemy troops. Resist Fire is a good complement, as it allows the mage to use the above without worrying too much about his own safety. Biggest problems are enemies resistant to fire, or that can fly (if the battlefield allows this). Terrain and weather is not much of an issue, as magical fire needs no fuel.

Effects that stun, induce fright-checks, give penalties to attributes, blind, etc... are of great use.
Effects that hide, give penalties to hit, increase resistance or provide a quick heal can be of great defensive value as well.

Some form of counter-magic is a must. There's no point in taking spells such as deflect missiles, for instance... when a dodge accomplishes this. Instead use your points on counterspells and wards. School Familiarity perks can be very useful here.

02-02-2009, 07:14 AM	#31
SandmanBr Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Dreaming	Re: [Magic] Battlemages and their favourite spells In a fantasy campaign with high points I used a mage with Create Animal + Enlarge, plus some other magic to boost de defense a giant wolf or lion can be very intimidating… __________________ Dreams are composed of many things, my son. Of Images and Hopes, of Fear and memories. Memories of the past, and memories of the future...

02-02-2009, 10:56 AM	#33
Xplo Join Date: Apr 2006	Re: [Magic] Battlemages and their favourite spells Answering this question really depends on what role the mage plays in battle. Is he there to duel other mages? Is he a magically-trained infantryman? Or is he some kind of specialist - say, one to a unit, or a member of the special forces? A duellist will want spells that can disrupt another mage - Body Control comes to mind - or that defend against whatever spells he might use. Information-gathering spells would be useful before the duel, to discover what spells the opponent might use. (As an aside: I don't feel like Magic handles "mage duel" scenarios very well. As far as I can tell, the way these duels usually work is that each duellist has some way to counter every attack that the other might use. For instance, if A casts a flame jet, B might counter with a second flame jet to "beat it back", or a frost jet to cancel it out, or a forcefield or fire immunity to deflect or ignore the fire, or he might cast something on the opposing jet itself to turn it into a harmless spray of flowers. Winning such a duel depends on beating down the opponent with raw power, possibly fueled by desperation as one is on the brink of defeat, or wearing him down through superior skill, or striving in vain until someone gets lucky - also likely to award higher skill - or discovering a weakness in the opponent's offense or defense and exploiting it. In GURPS, there are a limited number of blocking spells that would be useful in a mage duel.. and, with the exception of those spells, and sometimes a Dodge, each duellist must suffer the effects of the opposing attack in turn before they are able to counterattack. Spells that resist certain effects, such as fire or lightning, take long enough to cast that they're potentially useless unless you can start the duel with them already on. ...But I digress.) Where were we? Oh right. Mages as common infantry realistically wouldn't exist, since you'd have to train a bunch of green recruits to use magic fairly quickly, in addition to all the other skills that new soldiers need to learn. It takes enough time to whip a bunch of irregular slobs into fighting shape, teach them the rudiments of discipline and organization, and give them the ability to kill the enemy with a spear or gun and the will to do so, without also taking several years to train them in the arcane arts. If you want exceptions to this, then you either need to assume that magic is much easier to learn - perhaps eliminating prereq chains, and allowing faster learning in an intensive "magic boot camp" environment - or you need to assume that your soldiers are extremely long-lived, even ageless, and can therefore spend a few dozen or hundred years between wars learning new spells and keeping in practice. Such highly competent soldiers would likely act as specialists or special forces, though. Magic boot camps usually crank out Johnny One-Spells that only do one thing sorta-well and are really only good for lending your world a cheap veneer of fantasy color: instead of archers or riflemen, you have fireballers who do the exact same thing. Or instead of hoplites, you have flying hoplites. Oooooooo. Specialists fill specific roles in a combat unit other than direct combat with the enemy. For instance, in a unit of swordsmen or spearmen, the mage might have missile spells, allowing him to act as a defensive sniper (he'll probably want to stay near his unit, and missile spells tend to be pretty flashy, so other sniping roles seem less likely.. although Stone Missile would be pretty hard to see in the dark.) Or, if he has Explosive Fireball, he can be the unit's artilleryman. Non-combat spells might be even more useful, though. Healing and curing spells would reduce casualties substantially as well as raising unit morale. Scouting or information gathering spells would be of limited use to a unit - might help you spot an ambush, maybe - but combined with communication spells to relay the information back to a commander this would turn any unit into a useful scouting unit, and allow a historically-unprecedented level of intelligence gathering and command-and-control. The ability to create or purify food and water would grant an enormous logistical advantage; an army that can create its own supplies at need can go anywhere, at any time, for as long as necessary, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. Entire wars could be won just by attacking enemy supply trains and waiting for them to starve to death (or desertion). Special forces are badasses of the "Dungeon Fantasy PC" sort, and nearly anything and everything qualifies here. Buffing spells turn them into supersoldier killing machines who can mow down the enemy. Disguise, shapechanging, and stealth will allow them to slip through enemy lines and into sensitive areas. Assassination is obvious, but why not steal maps, communications, and other intelligence? How about plundering the enemy's cash reserves, spreading negative propaganda, or making symbolic attacks (such as sneaking into the enemy throne room and destroying the portraits of the king's ancestors, or blowing up the statue in the town square) to sap morale? Alternately, they could be used to clear strategic "hard" targets such as enemy walls and forts, so that regular troops can walk in and take possession. In this case, they'll want Destroy Air or poison gas-type spells, Mass Sleep, lots and lots of Create Fire, or anything else that can knock out a whole room in one shot, and a Wizard Eye or something similar to see which rooms need blasting. They should also have decent-to-excellent combat abilities (either magical or mundane), and if someone can create walls or forcefields (to seal off certain areas from attack or divide the enemy) and make holes in existing walls, so much the better. Special forces should have healing and food/water magic in any case, and if they have some communication and movement spells, all the better. No matter what role your "battlemages" play, you should avoid taking spells that duplicate what ordinary people can do by hand. Give them spells that will grant important advantages that will be used a lot and can't be gotten any other way.

02-02-2009, 11:52 AM	#34
hal Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: [Magic] Battlemages and their favourite spells In continuing with Xplo's theme... One of the fun things that can be done is to look at the actual training period of the mage to see what is happening and when. For the fun of it? I'm going to start up a new thread on BATTLEMAGIC Academy and see how such an organization might go about training battle mages :)

02-02-2009, 03:27 PM	#37
Witchking Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: The Athens of America	Re: [Magic] Battlemages and their favourite spells Of particular note and not previously mentioned... If you are going to be facing mages (as an adventurer not so much on the battlefield) and they may/will be recurring enemies... Seek and Tracer to allow you to locate and track them ambush is a wonderful thing if you are on the right side of it. Scryguard and Conceal Magic I am running a mage atm and have mages as Enemy Disadvantage and these two spells can be kept running 24/7 and make you a black hole for magical info purposes (it comes to you but you dont emit any)...particullary devistating if both are on at once. Magic Resistance the spell fairly proof against all but direct damage spells... a few pennies for you.... __________________ My center is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent. I shall attack.-Foch America is not perfect, but I will hold her hand until she gets well.-unk Tuskegee Airman

02-02-2009, 04:19 PM	#39
~~Figleaf23~~ Banned Join Date: Apr 2008	Re: [Magic] Battlemages and their favourite spells A couple of thoughts: -Atmosphere Dome is a great way to end a seige. -Materializing an elephant should be a nasty surprise to charging cavalry.

02-02-2009, 09:40 PM	#40
Gudiomen Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: in your pocket, stealing all your change	Re: [Magic] Battlemages and their favourite spells I've found a combination of... Create Fire Shape Fire Fast Fire to be quite useful. It can be created close by, under enemies for immediate effect. Shaping it grants it 5 hex/sec mobility. It bypasses most of DR (although non enhanced damage is low), can be used close, far, defensively or tactically (to block way to allies or self, to block exits, etc). It also serves to do away with those pesky darkness penalties, or to eat away at obstacles while you fight in a more mundane fashion. Several mythic/fantasy creatures are vulnerable to it. It's also useful on a larger scale on the battlefield, where rolling pillars of flame can wreck havoc on enemy troops. Resist Fire is a good complement, as it allows the mage to use the above without worrying too much about his own safety. Biggest problems are enemies resistant to fire, or that can fly (if the battlefield allows this). Terrain and weather is not much of an issue, as magical fire needs no fuel. Effects that stun, induce fright-checks, give penalties to attributes, blind, etc... are of great use. Effects that hide, give penalties to hit, increase resistance or provide a quick heal can be of great defensive value as well. Some form of counter-magic is a must. There's no point in taking spells such as deflect missiles, for instance... when a dodge accomplishes this. Instead use your points on counterspells and wards. School Familiarity perks can be very useful here.

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