Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-22-2021, 08:15 AM   #11
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

I advocate the leech approach.


The +5 ST pin theory sounds like its on the right track, though I'm not sure if the wraith can cast while grappling...
__________________
Be helpful, not pedantic

Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2021, 08:53 AM   #12
Taneli
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Apparently the people who wrote and edited Magic didn't have access to the final version of the 4th edition rules.
It might be a worthwhile endeavour to recreate the templates from GURPS Magic with the more mature GURPS 4e rules as we currently understand them.
__________________
[/delurk]
AotA is of course IMHO, YMMV.
vincit qui se vincit
Taneli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2021, 01:47 PM   #13
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I advocate the leech approach.


The +5 ST pin theory sounds like its on the right track, though I'm not sure if the wraith can cast while grappling...
Why ever not?
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2021, 02:19 PM   #14
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Why ever not?
You can't concentrate while in close combat.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2021, 04:41 PM   #15
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
An unconscious character is almost certainly already going to be at 0 HP or less.
Wraiths are Horrific which per B202 gives a +4 bonus on Intimidation. They're also Callous which gives another +1.

You can get another 1-4 for displays of strength (wraiths have ST 15) or supernatural powers (wraiths have ethereal body)

If they win the contest I think a lot of targets would essentially become "willing" to the Lich's spell (per "An honest citizen probably cooperates")

Also worth noting that a crit success on intimidation or crit fail on will to resist intimidation causes a Fright Check. B360 basic results often are stun (allowing the Lich to set up grapples) while B361 even has possible FP loss (allowing a target to pass out below 0 FP) or even fainting.

While you can be short on options for getting someone unconscious under Basic Set, using new Martial Arts options adds additional options for Wraiths too:

B370's Choke rules have an optional new component on MA117 "GM may permit you to inflict fatigue (not injury) on someone of your SM if he weighs no more than your BLx4."

ST 15 gives Wraiths a BL of 45, so that would be a cap of 180 pounds.

The "fatigue instead of crushing damage" also means that Roll With Blow and DR (crushing only) don't protect.

At 0 FP if you fail a will roll to try and do something you "collapse, incapacitated" which I think would justify being a valid target of Steal Vitality. Yeah it's a step short of "unconsciousness" but I think the key is you're "totally helpless" at that point (sounds like you can't even do active defenses, which normally Do Nothing allows, even at -4 when stunned)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Does that mean that if a Wraith beats a character unconscious, he can't Steal HP from them?
I suppose so, under standard unexceptional circumstances: it lacks finesse.

B420 failing knockdown check by 5 (or crit failing) can also cause you to go unconscious.

You could in theory just inflict a major wound (50% HP) to get that result: they'd still be in positive HP for you to drain.

That's low-IQ for a wraith though. They're better off targeting the face, since 1 dmg is enough to cause that roll.

If you want some real squick-factor, here's something fun to point out:

MA115 "worrying" on a nose or ear has capped injury (can't exceed HP/4) but still continues to inflict shock...

You're still "causing enough damage to cause shock" creating HT rolls which can result in knockdown/unconsciousness!

But not depleting HP.

So "chew their nose or ear until they black out" is probably one effective go-to tactic for experienced Wraiths who want to mine HP.

Eventually this results in chewing off a nose or ear though so you will want to keep it to 1 damage per attack if you can.

You can chew the face too: it can continue indefinitely (nothing comes off) but doesn't cap damage, so you might kill them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
The only way he can heal is to either have a willing minion or to grapple a conscious foe into "helplessness"? What does that even mean?
I figure pinning a foe would work too.

You have to use active defenses to stop them from using Break Free against you, which has a chance of interrupting spellcasting if the Wraith fails a will roll, so that would be tricky to do for a full 60 seconds, I'll admit.

Wraiths might also apply First Aid to a victim (restore HP lost to shock) once they're KO'd then drain that HP.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2021, 06:48 PM   #16
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
GURPS Magic often feels like a bit of a GURPS 3rd Edition port, and this extends to the templates in them.

For one extreme example the Wraith shouldn't get 150 points back for having a quite possibly plain-looking ring that they will die without. That implies that the dependency on the ring is more of a disadvantage than, say, being rooted to the ground (No Legs, Sessile) and Cursed. In practice removing a wraith's ring is more difficult than stabbing someone in the heart, and being able to commit suicide at will is a perk, not a disadvantage. I'm not sure I'd even give points for the dependency on a simple ring considering how easy it is to keep it on at all times. Especially since the Wraith has Supernatural Durability and hence can only be crippled (while at negative hp), not dismembered. Grappling it off a creature with Death Touch also seems quite extreme. So you're basically trying to destroy a tiny nondescript item on this thing. For most adventurers just hitting it repeatedly with a magically enchanted sword it far easier even if you know about the ring (and the Wraith doesn't pull a stunt like having a heavily decorated 'decoy' ring).

If you're actually going to have a Wraith PC (or Ally) I'd suggest just rebuilding the template with advantages. As an NPC it doesn't really matter how you build it as long as you know what it does.
It effectively is.

I just went back and reworked Wraith to get it in line with current rules. Even with 4e Basic it had problems "as written it makes a Wraith able to learn every spell that requires Magery 1 or less in the campaign. Why it was done this way rather using Basic Set's Racially Innate Spells rule is unclear. Not that it matters because GURPS Thaumatology changed how Partially Limited Magery worked. This assumes the Wraith is only able to cast its three spells per Racial Magery under Thaumatology's rules."
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2021, 06:58 PM   #17
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

There is no reason to have Deathtouch or Steal Vitality. Deathtouch can be replaced by Toxic Attack 3d (Melee, C, No Parry, -35%; Magical, -10%) [7] and Steal Vitality can be replaced by Leech (Contact Agent, -30%; Magical, -10%; Takes Extra Time 2, -20%) [10], saving 23 CP.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2021, 10:32 PM   #18
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

Another strategy for a Wraith to immobilize a foe without sapping their precious HP: B428's "Agony" causes a loss of 1 FP per minute or FRACTION (1 second is enough).

Accomplishing this per MA119's "Inflicting Pain with Locks" requires 10 "damage"

Arm Lock, Choke Hold, Finger Lock (B403-4) are options for doing this, though as B371 notes this requires Judo or Wrestling, so Wraiths with these skills have more finessing options.

Using Choke (B370) to cause suffocation (B436) might be simpler: 1 FP lost per turn until escape is quick way to make someone KO and initiation only requires 1 damage (crushing or blunt trauma, doesn't matter) gets through DR, so they'll only lose a minimum 1 HP.

This is normally a bit of a gamble: choke damage can vary more widely than normal damage due to it being based on MoS.

Technical Grappling is a huge upgrade for a Wraith (though kind of a downgrade for choke-to-kill folk) since you spend Control Points to set an upper limit on choke damage, so when you only want 1 HP max, spending 1 control point is the best way to avoid overkill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Deathtouch can be replaced by Toxic Attack 3d (Melee, C, No Parry, -35%; Magical, -10%) [7]
Keeping in mind "Armor does not Protect" you would need Irresistible Attack +300% to ignore DR.

Melee spells can be carried by Staff to extend reach and change what skill you're rolling to hit with, though I'm not sure how you'd encode that when using a sorcery-ish approach for melee spells.

Wraiths' skill 15 means they pay 0/1/2 to do 1/2/3 dice of damage normally, so you'd want to take Costs Fatigue 1 on the 2nd level and Costs Fatigue 2 on the 3rd level.

Cost goes up by 1 in Low Mana (skill 10) though I'm not sure how to do that in sorcery either since "Mana-Sensitive" only seems to recognize "No Mana" v "all the other kinds".

There's also the whole needing an IQ roll to prep the attack. Would make sense for Low Mana to penalize that, and the FP penalty when you fail "requires attribute roll" probably comes close enough to paying the extra FP

Then there's the long troublesome aspect of Sorcery: being able to substitute HP for FP when casting. My guess is you build spells casting HP by default and consider "1 HP costs 1 FP" as a +5% enhancement, and then you can just use Selectivity to switch it off if you want to pay HP.

Being able to control the dice (and the FP cost) also requires taking Variable. This is definitely important to fit the "want to be careful about overkilling potential food" sort of approach.

Needing a second to prep the spell, the closest is probably Takes Extra Time, even though that actually adds a Ready and not a Concentrate.

You could design "Accessibility: Only While Conscious" which does use a Concentrate, but then you'd need to build the summonable attack under something like Shapeshifting or Modular Abilities, unless the GM rules that Innate Attack has a switchable component that OWC can interact with.

This is kinda necessary to grasp the whole "my prepped ability fades away if I get knocked out before I can use it" idea of missile+melee spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
and Steal Vitality can be replaced by Leech (Contact Agent, -30%; Magical, -10%; Takes Extra Time 2, -20%) [10], saving 23 CP.
TET 2 is merely 8 seconds, shouldn't we aim for sixty with TET 5?

There's also that whole "dies at -1 HP" thing which effectively treats targets like they have Fragile: Unnatural. It probably wouldn't seem too off-base to float Symptoms over to Leech to represent that idea. It doesn't represent it perfectly (even 1 damage from this spell vs an HP 0 person will kill them) since it doesn't matter how much the spell itself inflicted though...

Also not sure how to apply the living+sapient restrictions to Leech. I guess Living is probably built in (you can't Leech a boulder to gain it's HP) so it's just the "sapient" part since AFAIK you can Leech a mouse to heal from it's HP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Even with 4e Basic it had problems "as written it makes a Wraith able to learn every spell that requires Magery 1 or less in the campaign.
This is all because their spells are different colleges (Deathtouch is body, Steal Vitality is necro, Ethereal Body is Movement) and at the time they only had one-college magery, I think.

You could give them "three college magery" or even "three spell magery" as of thaumatology if you don't want this to impart potential to learn other magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Why it was done this way rather using Basic Set's Racially Innate Spells rule is unclear.
Probably a good thing, B453 doesn't seem to understand how Magery 0 is supposed to work, when it prompts not applying the limitation to it and just the extra levels, which should only mean the extra levels are only usable for RM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Not that it matters because GURPS Thaumatology changed how Partially Limited Magery worked.
Wasn't RIS the only actual instance of PLM prior to TM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
This assumes the Wraith is only able to cast its three spells per Racial Magery under Thaumatology's rules.
Power Investiture as Modified Magery also addresses the idea of ignoring prereqs.

Given that you don't seem to have to know a prereq to retain a spell you already know when just that prereq is lost, I'm not sure anything actually stops you from just ignoring prereqs for starting spells without needing special modifiers, since they seem mostly needed for the learning process and not the retention process.

Wild Talent and that spell which makes you forget skills both do either a -2 or -4 penalty for a missing prereq though.

Last edited by Plane; 01-22-2021 at 10:42 PM.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2021, 12:19 AM   #19
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

TET 2 is 4 seconds. There is some utility lost when shifting from Steal Vitality to Leech, Steal Vitality is technically ranged, so the faster time makes up for it. The dies at -1 HP is just bad design, as undead want to suck everything from their victims, and they would use their Toxic Attack if they wanted to kill their victims quickly.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2021, 03:36 PM   #20
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
TET 2 is 4 seconds.
I was definitely more wrong than you (not sure how I got 8) but on further review, since Leech uses an Attack maneuver, TET 1 adds a 1-second ready and TET 2 doubles that to a 2-second ready, so I think it actually brings it to 3 seconds per interval, or 4 if you need to spend another attack maneuver to set up a grapple first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
There is some utility lost when shifting from Steal Vitality to Leech, Steal Vitality is technically ranged, so the faster time makes up for it.
I initially thought this too since it's listed as a Regular spell and not a Melee spell, but "the caster must touch the subject" sounds like you can't really take advantage of the usual -1 per yard options.

Maybe this is a consideration for those with very long arms? Like if I have 5-yard stretchy arms I'd be -5 to cast Steal Vitality because what matters is distance from my head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The dies at -1 HP is just bad design, as undead want to suck everything from their victims, and they would use their Toxic Attack if they wanted to kill their victims quickly.
I get the point of it is to avoid overuse because it risks killing people, and to demonize those who feed a lot, and for there to be no "safe cue" (someoen passing out at 0 HP) to stop, but it's definitely kind of a powerful thing.

Then again so is the ability to destroy almost any item with a bad repair.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
leech, requires grapple, steal vitality, unhealing, wraith

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.