"1/2 as effective against X" Limitation and Player Controlled Allies

[Peaches]

Is there a RAW legal way of having a limitation for making an ability that is only half as effective against a certain category of targets? What about 1/4, or even an enhancement that makes it x2 or x4 more effective? I'm thinking primarily in terms of using it to modify Injury inflicted, and I know I could give all the targets the appropriate advantages and disadvantages to simulate this, but assume this is not desirable.

If all Player Characters have certain kinds of Allies which are Player controlled but not Player Character controlled, should this simply not be paid for in Character Points but be a campaign switch?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Peaches

Is there a RAW legal way of having a limitation for making an ability that is only half as effective against a certain category of targets? What about 1/4, or even an enhancement that makes it x2 or x4 more effective? I'm thinking primarily in terms of using it to modify Injury inflicted, and I know I could give all the targets the appropriate advantages and disadvantages to simulate this, but assume this is not desirable.

In the limit you can always buy the ability twice, once with Not on X and at a different level with Only on X. Mind you there are a lot of combinations that will give you less ability against either than you would have buying it with no limits for fewer points, but it will give you *a* price for any combination of multipliers.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by malloyd

In the limit you can always buy the ability twice, once with Not on X and at a different level with Only on X. Mind you there are a lot of combinations that will give you less ability against either than you would have buying it with no limits for fewer points, but it will give you *a* price for any combination of multipliers.

While that's a good idea, it's not particularly efficient for what I have in mind. I'm thinking of characters within X category and all of their abilities have varying effectiveness against characters of A, B, and C categories. Think Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors. What I'm saying is I think it'd be a lot less hassle if a category could be expressed as a modifier. E.g., rather then buying two abilities with "Not on Atheists" and "Only on Undead", but just one ability with "Holy".

[Anaraxes]

You can certainly make up a single name for a category and give it a value so that you can reuse it. malloyd outlined the procedure to estimating the value the new Limitation ought to have. An ability that does half damage half of the time would have full price for half of the levels, and a (say) -20% Accessibility limitation on half of the levels, which works out to -10% for the full price of all the levels. Once you're happy with the value, just name it and apply it to other abilities. You don't have to actually work the procedure for each individual ability.

Note that combining several categories into one Accessibility isn't done by adding the separate limitations, because the Accessibility scale isn't linear. You'd add the probabilities of being useful first, then check that result on the Accessibility scale.

An ability that does double damage versus a category is the same thing as an ability with twice the damage, but with half of the levels limited as "Only Versus Category". Just switch your point of view around from "double damage versus category" to "half damage versus not category".

As for the second question, it's common enough to games to have campaign advantages that are simply assigned to all players without paying for them. You can either ignore the cost, or just bump the campaign starting total to have extra points to cover the required campaign advantages, to suit your taste. CP totals are a relative measure, so either way works.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You can certainly make up a single name for a category and give it a value so that you can reuse it. malloyd outlined the procedure to estimating the value the new Limitation ought to have. An ability that does half damage half of the time would have full price for half of the levels, and a (say) -20% Accessibility limitation on half of the levels, which works out to -10% for the full price of all the levels. Once you're happy with the value, just name it and apply it to other abilities. You don't have to actually work the procedure for each individual ability.

Note that combining several categories into one Accessibility isn't done by adding the separate limitations, because the Accessibility scale isn't linear. You'd add the probabilities of being useful first, then check that result on the Accessibility scale.

An ability that does double damage versus a category is the same thing as an ability with twice the damage, but with half of the levels limited as "Only Versus Category". Just switch your point of view around from "double damage versus category" to "half damage versus not category".

Ah, alright. Mind you, math is my kryptonite, so I think I understand this:

So lets say there's 18 categories. Category X is twice as effective against 3 out of 18 of those categories, but is only half as effective against 7 out of 18 of those categories. This works out to being overall useful roughly 20% of the time, so Category X would be a -30% modifier. Did I get that right?

[dfinlay]

Originally Posted by Peaches

Ah, alright. Mind you, math is my kryptonite, so I think I understand this:

So lets say there's 18 categories. Category X is twice as effective against 3 out of 18 of those categories, but is only half as effective against 7 out of 18 of those categories. This works out to being overall useful roughly 20% of the time, so Category X would be a -30% modifier. Did I get that right?

What I would do is put limitations on the differences. For example, if it was a 6d Crushing Attack, that's

3d Crushing [15] + 3d More Crushing (11/18 categories only -15%) [14.25] + 6d More Crushing (3/18 categories only -35%) [19.5] for a total cost of [48.75], which rounds up to [49]

EDIT: Note that these modifier percentages are based on the notes for Accessability in Powers.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Peaches

While that's a good idea, it's not particularly efficient for what I have in mind. I'm thinking of characters within X category and all of their abilities have varying effectiveness against characters of A, B, and C categories. Think Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors. What I'm saying is I think it'd be a lot less hassle if a category could be expressed as a modifier. E.g., rather then buying two abilities with "Not on Atheists" and "Only on Undead", but just one ability with "Holy".

The simplest way to do this would be for all Water types to have Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction 1/2: Limited Defense (Fire) [30] and Vulnerability (Lightning): Injury x2 [-30].

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by dfinlay

What I would do is put limitations on the differences. For example, if it was a 6d Crushing Attack, that's

3d Crushing [15] + 3d More Crushing (11/18 categories only -15%) [14.25] + 6d More Crushing (3/18 categories only -35%) [19.5] for a total cost of [48.75], which rounds up to [49]

EDIT: Note that these modifier percentages are based on the notes for Accessability in Powers.

I was almost about to ask if I could just have a straight up equation to plug the appropriate numbers into the right places because word problems are evil, and viola, here's one! Now, what if certain categories are immune to that category?

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

The simplest way to do this would be for all Water types to have Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction 1/2: Limited Defense (Fire) [30] and Vulnerability (Lightning): Injury x2 [-30].

You know, I actually thought of this. Whip up Meta Traits for each of the categories and then give all the abilities the appropriate -0% category modifier to note how it interacts. The thing is though is that characters could be a combination of any two categories and that would mean making up a lot of those Meta Traits.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Peaches

I was almost about to ask if I could just have a straight up equation to plug the appropriate numbers into the right places because word problems are evil, and viola, here's one! Now, what if certain categories are immune?



You know, I actually thought of this. Whip up Meta Traits for each of the categories and then give all the abilities the appropriate -0% category modifier to note how it interacts. The thing is though is that characters could be a combination of any two categories and that would mean making up a lot of those Meta Traits.

If you're a Rock/Water type, your IT:DR and Vulnerability cancel out to taking normal injury, and combining types does not increase the values of either IT:DR or Vulnerability.

[Peaches]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

If you're a Rock/Water type, your IT:DR and Vulnerability cancel out to taking normal injury, and combining types does not increase the values of either IT:DR or Vulnerability.

Yes, and if both categories are weak to a category that increases Vulnerability, or if both resist a category and that increases IT:DR, etc.. But I really want to avoid all that. The simplicity of just slapping on a single modifier to model the interactions between the various categories rather then Meta Traits... because, say, if we have 18 categories that's potentially 171(!) Meta Traits to be statted out. Instead, while characters might be of two different categories, their abilities may only have mono category modifiers, e.g. the Rock/Water combo character's abilities might either have the Rock or Water modifier. This way I'm just working with 18 different modifiers. It saves my sanity. x_x