Wraith, Unhealing, and Steal Vitality?

[AlexanderHowl]

Even though it is techically an attack, Leech does not require an attack maneuver, it requires a turn of contact. TET 1 doubles that to 2 turns, TET 2 quadruples that to 4 turns, etc.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Leech does not require an attack maneuver

P154

Many transient abilities call for an Attack maneuver to activate.
The most important of these are Affliction, Binding, Innate Attack, Leech, Neutralize, and any advantage with the Ranged enhancement.
(Exception: Malediction changes the maneuver needed from Attack to Concentrate.)
If the user can’t make an Attack, he can’t use such abilities.

The turn of contact is an added requirement, probably working like "requires grapple" for Innate Attacks in Powers: The Weird" which also doesn't remove the standard maneuver requirement.

[AlexanderHowl]

Establishing unwilling contact requires an Attack maneuver, but using Leech does not require an Attack maneuver. Just look at the description of Leech in Powers, p. 96-97 and Horror, p. 20-21. They each give the exact conditions required to use Leech, and an Attack maneuver is not listed because Leech can be used out of combat. This allows characters to use Leech without penalty while maintaining a grapple (or while being grappled) because they do not need to Attack. Now, Leech with Ranged would need an Attack maneuver, but it changes to Concentrate because it requires Malediction.

[Plane]

I think part of the confusion here is the way Vampiric Bite and Neutralize are written in basic set, they are implied to operate like "free action" Follow-Ups to carriers like how Melee Spells work, except unlike Follow-Up or a Melee-Spell, you can touch someone with the body part carrying/delivering your attack and opt NOT to deliver it.

B71 for example mentions "To use Neutralize, you must touch the subject (requires an Attack maneuver)" which resembles B240's "To attack, roll against DX or an unarmed combat skill to hit with a hand"

I won't assume Neutralize/Melee Spells work entrely identically though. Like this benefit:

"If the spell is one that ignores armor, neither an unarmed parry (even with an armored limb) nor a block will protect the target"

I don't know if that applies to Neutralize.

The writeups for Melee Spells and Neutralize both appear to assume there's a lack of already-present contact between the neutralizer/mage so essentially you're rolling either to punch or grapple a target to initiate contact.

Neither explore the possible scenario of "the foe initiates contact by punching/grabbing me" in which case you wouldn't need to make a punch/grapple.

They're clearly active abilities though (you will the effects to happen, it's not passively done like Spikes or Aura) so inflicting these attacks as free actions feels off-base. It flies in the face of how there's no free-action active attacks, like the ban on using Reduced Time to turn attacks into free actions, even though you can do that for non-attacks.

If we wanted a scenario like "it still takes 1 attack to Neutralize even if your foe is already in contact with you because he's grappled you" then I guess we could say it works something like Link+20%?

It's certainly not like a Carrier/Follow-Up because Follow-Ups ALWAYS happen, like Link+10% pairs. The only way I could see doing a "Leech/Neutralize anyone who touches me" situation is if it was automatic via the Aura enhancement.

Leech and Neutralize do not appear to require an attack to hit (similar to No Roll Required cosmic but BETTER since you don't need a minimum skill of 3 to attempt) nor do they seem to be avoidable by an active defense (also similar to a cosmic).

Two obvious analogies exist for this in Basic Set, the first being Spines on B88 which has some kinda confusing wording:

you cannot use your Spines actively.
However, you get a DX-4 roll to hit a foe with you in close combat

That it relies on DX makes it sound like you actually ARE actively guiding your spines, especially since it emphasizes "foe" which I think implies that if you were in close combat with an ally (ie you two are sharing a hex, perhaps struggling with a 3rd party FOE who is fighting you both?) that you aren't obligated to roll to hit your ally.

The only automatic hit (and obligatory free-action attack?) from Spines seems to be when you are grappled or slammed (unsure about other collisions like from knockback)

I guess there's absolutely no way for an ally to pick you up (since Pickup requires a Grapple) without being impaled, unless you took Switchable (to turn off spines) or if something like "Selective Effect" would allow you to lay down some of your spikes to avoid impaling an ally while still impaling someone who attacked you while you were carried?

Spines has similarities to Aura (both automatically hit/damage those slamming/grappling you) but is different in that unlike Aura you don't auto-hit someone you punch/grapple: those just mean you're in close combat and get the DX roll against them.

Spines has some similarities to a 1-yard persistent AE with the bombardment limitation except it (a) substitutes the DX-based roll in place of a fixed bombardment number, and (b) doesn't use large-area-injury rules.

The second on B403 for what happens after you secure an Arm Lock (which remained intact on MA65)

The rolls to inflict damage are completely passive and do not count as attacks

A third analogy being in MA115's new rules for the effects bite attacks:

"You can either nip and let go or hold on and grapple your victim in addition to injuring"
"On subsequent turns, you can worry. This counts as an attack but it always hits"

MA is an example of how changes can be made to how attacks previously used to operate, and though it did not alter how Arm Locks' damage is a free action, Technical Grappling seems to move in that direction.

TG38 makes a significant change to these rules under the new "Joint Locks" section. Where at first (B403) it worked much like a Judo Throw (optionally done via a single attack after a parry) now it requires a setup grapple: meaning if you did want to set it up via a parry it had to be a Grabbing Parry. Otherwise you need to set it up via an attack.

Basically like TG39's "Harsh Realism: Judo Throw" except this is now mandatory policy for Joint Locks.

TG38 begins with:

"Once the lock has been achieved, inflicting pain or injury is a free action on your next turn"

The singular "turn" is a noticeable departure from B403's "On your next turn – and on each
turn thereafter" because "and on each turn thereafter" was removed.

I believe Powers made a similar change to how Neutralize works (unless we treat it as functioning Link+20% with punches/grapples somehow) though perhaps not as explicitly as ideal.

P154's wording I think changes Neutralize to work like TG25's optional rule for Arm Locks "Treat Damage as an Attack" which is how Worrying after a Bite Attack already works.

P164 ties the mechanics of Leech/Neutralize together too:

as well as “touch only” abilities such as Leech and Neutralize.

We see this TO term on P104 as well as a ZR synonym:

Abilities that are normally “touch only” or “zero range” – Control, Create, Healing, Illusion, Leech, Mana Damper, Mana Enhancer, Neutralize, Possession, Static

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Establishing unwilling contact requires an Attack maneuver, but using Leech does not require an Attack maneuver.

That contradicts what P154 clearly states. Leech is distinct from Grapple.

I expect of course that this is not "one maneuver only" (this could cause trouble for Berserk people since they can often only use All-Out Attack and not "(standard) Attack" maneuvers in close-range combat.

Rather "an Attack maneuver" in the context of what I'll term the "ABILN quintet" (Affliction, Binding, Innate Attack, Leech, Neutralize) on P154 probably means "a maneuver which gives an attack" so you could probably use them with AOA/M+A from basic (melee or ranged) or the new Committed/Defensive ones in Martial Arts (melee only) basically any maneuver which gives minimum 1 attack and benefits from combination with "Extra Attack".

Attacks which are not ST-based don't benefit from the "Strong" damage bonus, but I think can get the bonus to hit from determined (+1 AOA ranged or +2/+4 for melee AOA/Committed) or two attacks (melee only).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Just look at the description of Leech in Powers, p. 96-97 and Horror, p. 20-21. They each give the exact conditions required to use Leech

"unbroken series of attacks" is a conspicuous phrase on H21 for something that doesn't expend them.

P96 defines the additional condition of "maintain ongoing contact" but it doesn't say anything about ignoring the basic conditions of attacking with attacks: you must expend an 'attack'.

Accelerated Healing mentions "Your attack doesn’t harm your victim any faster" if it doesn't seem apparent this is an attack.

P11's Alternative Abilities box groups Leech under attacks which means it enjoys the benefit that there's no Ready maneuver required to switch it to a different attack, or switch TO it from a different attack.

P164 also notes "Melee Attacks Includes: All normally ranged attacks modified with Melee Attack, as well as “touch only” abilities such as Leech and Neutralize"

I do note that "Attacks tied to body weaponry via Follow-Up also involve a melee attack." Clearly follow-up does not require an attack in and of itself, but rather is tied to the attack spent on the carrier.

Followups definitely require a very specific carrier though, so the question is, if we treat Leech/Neutralize the same way, how broad a range of "carrier" attacks work?

Leech doesn't appear to be "any touch whatsoever" because of the note we see on B96:

The traditional vampire has Blood Agent (-40%), and must bite his victim

Sharp Teeth is a convenient natural weapon to cause a wound to deliver a Blood Agent attack (in lieu of a mucous membrane) what if you had Blood Agent Leech without sharp teeth and wanted to use a knife? Wouldn't you also be obligated to touch your mouth to the knife wound?

The best way to resolve "must bite" instead of "must touch a wound" would be that Leech works like Innate Attacks in that you need to specify the attack's point of origin: the mouth (breath attacks) or eyes (beam attacks) or hands (bolt attacks) so the standard vampire Leech would be a "melee breath" while if you want to go the PG 13 90s Spider-Man Cartoon Morbius "suckers on my palms" route, you have a "melee bolt" instead.

If you think of the mechanics of blood-drinking: can you really focus on chewing and slurping at the same time? It makes complete sense to need to choose between spending an attack to Worry vs spending an attack to Leech. Someone doing both during the same turn should be doing that consecutively via All-Out Attack (Double) or Extra Attack, not simultaneously.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

an Attack maneuver is not listed because Leech can be used out of combat.

Combat is sort of a subjective label: you can hug someone "out of combat" but using Telegraphic All-Out Attack : Determined to target with a grapple at +8 could be used to represent that. Same with a "long handshake".

You actually don't need to make an attack to initiate or maintain ongoing contact with someone: if someone insists on grappling you (you just let them) then ongoing contact would clearly be maintained without needing to do a grappling attack. Ongoing contact is basically that whole "grapples are mutual" thing that TG elaborates on.

P96's "must grapple" is probably just assuming the foe doesn't want to grapple you, or if they are, that they could easily let go (as a free action) once you started leeching them, so "must grapple" is I think the implied contact that your enemy is may attempt to avoid ongoing contact and so grappling is the only way to force that on them.

"drain ends instantly if you release your victim" I believe operates under the assumption that your victim is not grappling you, so if you release your grip, ongoing contact is lost.

Since ongoing contact would still be present if your victim insists on maintaining a grapple on you, your own grapple ending shouldn't end the drain.

A third scenario is you're tied up together back to back, so a rope's grapple on you is forcing ongoing contact even though neither party is actively maintaining a grapple.

Or maybe you're smushed together in a box, lying on top of each other after falling into a narrow grave, squished together in a crowded subway, etc.

P164 under "Attacking" also mentions:

Abilities with offensive potential – including Mind Control, Obscure, and many other advantages that aren’t “attacks” per se

P104 as mentioned before includes a similar list under the Ranged enhancement on left column, which includes Healing. Healing appears to be absent on the P164-P165 lists though.

Healing uses a Concentrate maneuver (not sure if you can reduce that to free action via Reduced Time) but doesn't require a Quick Contest to work (like Maledictions) as Neutralize does. It might be the only attack-ish thing out there which uses a Concentrate without a contest AFAIK...

PP20's notes on the Ranged enhancement talks about "an ability that works as a touch-based
Malediction" which includes Neutralize. For ease of reference we could abbreviate Touch-based Ability Working As Malediction" as TAWAM ?

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

This allows characters to use Leech without penalty while maintaining a grapple (or while being grappled) because they do not need to Attack. Now, Leech with Ranged would need an Attack maneuver, but it changes to Concentrate because it requires Malediction.

I think one of the odd things here is looking at how applying Ranged+40% to TAWAM would work if they had different base activation times.

For the purpose of this example, let's posit for example that Neutralize is a "free action attack" (as one assumes reading basic set) and not "needs an attack maneuver" as Powers may or may not have altered it.

Possession is also classified as TAWAM. It too requires touch, but very explicitly (like Healing) also requires a Concentrate maneuver.

If applying Ranged+40% means it STILL takes a Concentrate maneuver to initiate the attack (you just don't need to have physical contact) then activation time is not increased.

If OTOH you suddenly DO need a Concentrate maneuver to use Neutralize after applying Ranged +40% to it, then activation time would have increased if it were a free action to begin with...

It would make more sense if, as a touch-based Malediction, that Neutralize required a Concentrate maneuver like Possession did, because then both using a Concentrate to use at range would mean the enhancement affected both equally.

The same consideration for Leech: if it's a free action, and Malediction replaces Attack with Concentrate, then why would there be a Concentrate?

If "free action not an attack" is baked into Leech/Neutralize then it would only make sense to see Concentrates similarly reduced to a free action by that baked-in-benefit, yet that doesn't appear to be the case.

Otherwise they would end up costing more via the Ranged enhancement while Healing/Possession don't.