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Old 04-22-2021, 08:56 PM   #11
maximara
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
As Magery 0 didn't exist then, all Mages had at least Magery 1, and thus 'as a mage' meant at least all spells in their available colleges requiring Magery 1 were available to them.
I know Magery 0 didn't exist then but another way to look at it is Clerics "used" and "cast" spells as if they were in a high mana area and high mana did exist back then.

In fact, Classic: Magic 2e p 95's "Spells of other colleges can be learned, and used as prerequisites, but not cast except in high-mana areas." reinforces this view.

Now what spells can a non-mage learn but not use (cast) in low and normal mana areas? Spells that do not require Magery 1 or higher.

This may have been the inspiration for Mana Enhancer which didn't appear in Classic until Conpendium 1 in 1996.
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Old 04-22-2021, 09:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
You know, it doesn't actually matter what spells or even what magic systems exist in the setting. What matters is what the GM permits PCs to learn, which is a personal decision at each gaming table. The mere existence of weird-and-wonderful magic needn't affect the setting at all if it isn't widely taught and used. Doubtless there are guild secrets, stuff researched by loner wizards in towers, stuff guarded by the dark elves, etc., but those amount to plot devices.

I've never understood the logic, "Well, if it exists then the genie is out of the bottle and everybody will do it." It's completely possible for hundreds of potent spells to be the one-off tricks of selfish people, and die with their discoverers. The basic magic system doesn't even require written grimoires . . . some weird theory in the mind of one person might never be reproduced.
I have to agree with Kromm here on this in that "what the GM allows" is the route many GM's did end up going. A fair number of the "healing spells" from GRIMOIRE made it into my games, but not Earth to Metal. In my current 4e games, the Essential Wood spell never made it into the campaigns. As for the "Rain of" spells - those were kept out as well.

I did experiment with the Terrain spells in an "Atlantean" campaign, but found the ability to transport entire regions of physical space for the energy costs (again, going by recollection here) made the full use of that particular spell forbidden in subsequent campaigns.

On a seeming seque...

GCA creator Armin deserves a LOT of Kudos for the work he had done with GURPS MAGIC and GCA. I remember thinking how neat it would be to re-arrange all of the prerequisites for spells by use of GCA such that, for example - Suspend Mana was a prerequisite for Drain Mana.

Ultimately? With over 800+ spells versus 400+ and prior to that less than 200 spells - things can get a wee bit different with each iteration of spell knowledge increase.
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Old 04-23-2021, 03:46 AM   #13
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

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GCA creator Armin deserves a LOT of Kudos for the work he had done with GURPS MAGIC and GCA. I remember thinking how neat it would be to re-arrange all of the prerequisites for spells by use of GCA such that, for example - Suspend Mana was a prerequisite for Drain Mana.

Ultimately? With over 800+ spells versus 400+ and prior to that less than 200 spells - things can get a wee bit different with each iteration of spell knowledge increase.
I agree that is a lot of work which makes GCS (I use a Mac so GCA is not useful without WINE) even more impressive. While GCS pulls from the official books (and a handful of unofficial ones such as Historical Folks) it like GURPS is fully customizable.

GCS gets somewhat regular updates with the last being April 12, 2021.
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Old 04-23-2021, 12:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

OK, I'm going to reserve this spot for a table of Spells as given in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition. I will have to experiment with how to format it so that it looks ok. I'll also have to keep track of the numbers of characters in the list so as to not go over the hard limit of 5,000 characters per post.
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Old 04-23-2021, 03:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
"Use" and "cast" are not "learn". The problem is earlier on in the book there is this:

"Most spells can be learned by anyone (though remember: in some worlds they can only be used by mages). Some spells can only be learned by mages — being a mage is a prerequisite for the spell." sic (Classic Magic 2e pg 4)

Later on we get this:

“Magery” is a prerequisite for most of the stronger spells. This means that no one but a mage — a person with Magical Aptitude — can learn them." (Classic Magic 2e pg 5)

Classic: Magic 2e p 95 effectively gave Clerics what in 4e amounts to a limited form of Magery 0 and effectively locked them out of spells that required Magery 1 or higher to learn.
There was of course no such thing as Magery 0. And yeah "use" and "cause" aren't the same thing as "learn". But clerics don't learn the spells in the first place any more than a knack user or someone with a racial spell. The only thing they learn is the correct prayer to ask their gods to help them in a spell-like manner.

That's why the next clerical magic system dispensed with prerequisite spell chains. Because clerics may cast magic, but they don't know magic. They leave knowing it to the gods and possibly reluctantly to the mages. In that particular proto-system for clerical magic , they would spend 10 points for access to just one magical college but they were getting access to the entire college for the ten points.

Last edited by David Johnston2; 04-23-2021 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 04-23-2021, 04:08 PM   #16
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
There was of course no such thing as Magery 0.
Other then a house rule that came out in 1997 pretty much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
And yeah "use" and "case" aren't the same thing as "learn". But clerics don't learn the spells in the first place any more than a knack user or someone with a racial spell. The only thing they learn is the correct prayer to ask their gods to help them in a spell-like manner.

That's why the next clerical magic system dispensed with prerequisite spell chains. Because clerics may cast magic, but they don't [I]know[I] magic. They leave knowing it to the gods and possibly reluctantly to the mages. In that particular proto-system for clerical magic , they would spend 10 points for access to just one magical college but they were getting access to the entire college for the ten points.
Not exactly:
"The GM may also “customize” a spell list for a religion, as he deems fitting for the Power served, removing inappropriate spells from the college(s) and adding appropriate ones from other colleges. He may even create spells that are available only to certain clerics. The cost should be based on the number and power of spells available; 40 spells, for 15 points, is about the maximum." - Classic Magic 2e pg 95

Regarding Religion you can see the pro-version of Power Investiture in Classic Magic 2e on pg 95: "A Power may grant its clerics a bonus to effective spell skill. Increase the cost of the advantage by 5 points for each +1 bonus, up to a maximum of +3. Bonuses for healing skills cost 2 points for each +1, up to a maximum of +3. Other sorts of bonus may be allowed."

Religion also fixed a problem with Magic's version of Clerics: their spells casting was still dependent on mana. So they were in the same boat as the mages in a no mana area even if that place was a temple dedicated to the very deity they served.
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Old 04-24-2021, 04:44 AM   #17
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
OK, I'm going to reserve this spot for a table of Spells as given in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition. I will have to experiment with how to format it so that it looks ok. I'll also have to keep track of the numbers of characters in the list so as to not go over the hard limit of 5,000 characters per post.
The GURPSnet archives' sub directories (including Magic) still exist (even if the main intro page is long gone) though ironically they are too new (2007). However, Internet archive does have the older (sjgames.com) GURPSnet directory but no Magic spell list I can see and coming into being 1999 I don't know how much use it would have been.

Would be great sources of how GURPS looked for much for the last Third edition era though.
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Old 04-24-2021, 06:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

Found Roleplayer #16 (October 1989)'s Spell Dependency Charts.

Given that GURPS went from 1st to 3rd in the space of two years (1986-1988) and the Grimore didn't appear until 1994 unless there were major changes from Fantasy 1e (1986) to Magic 1e for GURPS 3e (1989) we should be able to use that.
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Old 04-24-2021, 08:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

As fate would have it, I can't put all of the 304 spells of GURPS FANTASY 1st edition in a list that will fit on a single "post", so I will divide it into two posts
Code:
Earth Spells:
Seek Earth                   Shape Earth                  Earth to Stone               
Stone to Earth               Create Earth                 Flesh to Stone               
Stone to Flesh               Stone Missile                Earth to Air                 
Earth Vision                 Entombment                   Earthquake                   
Volcano                      Summon (Earth) Elemental     Control (Earth) Elemental    
Create (Earth) Elemental                                  


Air Spells:
Purify Air                   Create Air                   Shape Air                    
Air Jet                      No Smell                     Body of Air                  
Predict Weather              Destroy Air                  Walk on Air                  
Breathe Water                Clouds                       Rain                         
Earth to Air                 Lightning                    Summon (Air) Elemental       
Control (Air) Elemental      Create (Air) Elemental                                    


Fire Spells:
Ignite Fire                  Create Fire                  Shape Fire                   
Extinguish Fire              Heat                         Cold                         
Resist Fire                  Fireball                     Exploding Fireball           
Flame-Jet                    Phantom Flame                Flaming Weapon               
Essential Flame              Flaming Missile              Summon (Fire) Elemental      
Control (Fire) Elemental     Create (Fire ) Elemental     


Water Spells:
Seek Water                   Purify Water                 Create Water                 
Destroy Water                Dehydrate                    Breathe Air                  
Shape Water                  Essential Water              Walk on Water                
Fog                          Water-Jet                    Icy Weapon                   
Ice-sphere                   Ice Dagger                   Rain                         
Summon (Water) Elemental     Control (Water) Elemental    Create (Water ) Elemental    



Sound Spells:
Sound                        Voices                       Thunderclap                  
Silence                      Wall of Silence              Hush                         
Mage-Stealth                 Far-Hearing                                               


Making & Breaking Spells:
Find Weakness                Weaken                       Shatter                      
Restore                      Rejoin                       Repair                       
Shatterproof                                                                           


Light & Darkness Spells:
Light                        Continual Light              Colors                       
Flash                        Darkness                     Blur                         
Hide                         Invisibility                 Infravision                  
Night Vision                 Dark Vision                  See Invisible                



Illusion & Creation Spells:
Simple Illusion              Complex Illusion             Perfect Illusion             
Illusion Disguise            Control Illusion             Dispel Illusion              
Create Object                Create Animal                Create Servant               
Create Warrior               Control Creation             Dispel Creation              
Know Illusion                Independence                                              


Communication & Empathy Spells:
Sense Life                   Sense Foes                   Sense Emotion                
Truthsayer                   Mind-reading                 Hide Thoughts                
Soul Rider                   Mind Search                  Mind-Sending                 
Telepathy                    Persuasion                   Control Person               
Possession                   Permanent Possession         Exchange Bodies              
Exorcism                     Lend Language                Borrow Language              


Protection & Warning Spells:
Shield                       Armor                        Sense Danger                 
Watchdog                     Missile Shield               Reverse Missile              
Iron Arm                     Magelock                     Weather Dome                 
Utter Dome                   Nightingale
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Old 04-24-2021, 09:00 AM   #20
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Default Re: Discussing Yrth History & Evolution of GURPS MAGIC

And this is the second half of that list...

Code:
Healing Spells:
Lend Strength                Lend Health                  Recover Strength             
Awaken                       Minor Healing                Major Healing                
Sterilize                    Suspended  Animation         Cure Disease                 
Restoration                  Instant Restoration          Regeneration                 
Instant Regeneration         Halt Aging                   Youth                        
Resurrection                                                                           


Necromancy Spells:
Death Vision                 Summon Spirit                Zombie                       
Control Zombie               Turn Zombie                  Resurrection                 
Animation                    Skull-Spirit                 Soul Jar                     
Steal Strength               Steal Health                 Age                          
Steal Youth                  Pestilence                   Summon Demon                 


Mind Control Spells:
Fear                         Bravery                      Foolishness                  
Drunkenness                  Sickness                     Forgetfulness                
Permanent Forgetfulness      Daze                         Mass Daze                    
Sleep                        Mass Sleep                   Madness                      
Loyalty                      Charm                        Enslave                      
Wisdom                       Emotion Control              Lesser Geas                  
Great Geas                   Keen  Eyes                   Keen Ears                    
Keen Nose                    Alertness                    Rear Vision                  


Knowledge Spells:
Detect Magic                 Aura                         Seeker                       
Trace                        History                      Divination                   
See Secrets                  Wizard Eye                   Invisible Wizard Eye         
Mage Sight                   Mage Sense                   Analyze Magic                
Earth Vision                 Glass Wall                   Far-Hearing                  


Animal Spells:
Beast Soother                Beast Summoning              Insect Control               
Fish Control                 Reptile Control              Bird Control                 
Mammal Control               Rider                        Rider Within                 
Beast Possession             Beast Speech                 Shapeshifting                
Shapeshift Others                                                                      


Food Spells:
Test Food                    Preserve Food                Seek Food                    
Decay                        Purify Food                  Poison Food                  
Cook                         Create Food                  Banquet                      
Monk’s Banquet                                                                         


Movement Spells:
Haste                        Great Haste                  Apportation                  
Locksmith                    Lockmaster                   Air-Golem                    
Levitation                   Flight                       Hawk Flight                  
Teleport                     Teleport Other               Winged Knife                 



Body Control Spells:
Itch                         Spasm                        Pain                         
Clumsiness                   Dexterity                    Climbing                     
Strike Blind                 Strike Deaf                  Strike Dumb                  
Curse-Missle                 Paralyze Limb                Total Paralysis              
Wither Limb                  Deathtouch                   Fatigue                      
Hinder                       Rooted Feet                  Tanglefoot                   
Resist Pain                                                                            


Meta Spells Spells:
Link                         Spellbreak                   Conceal Magic                
Scryguard                    Scrywall                     Magic Resistance             
Spell Shield                 Counterspell                 Dispel Magic                 
Ward                         Great Ward                   Pentagram                    
Bless                        Curse                        Remove Curse                 
Drain Mana                   Restore Mana                                              


Enchantment Spells:
Enchant                      Scroll                       Suspend Enchantment          
Power                        Hex                          Lesser Wish                  
Great Wish                   Golem                                                     


Weapon Enchantments Spells:
Accuracy                     Puissance                    Quick-Draw                   
Dancing Weapon               Loyal Sword                  Cornucopia                   
Bane                                                                                   

Armor Enchantments Spells:
Fortify                      Deflect                      Lighten                      


Limiting Enchantments Spells:
Password                     Limit                        Link                         
Spellbreak                                                                             

Wizardly Tools Spells:
Staff                        Powerstone                   Crystal Ball

Last edited by hal; 04-24-2021 at 09:00 AM. Reason: fixed a minor issue
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