Suppressing news in the Third Imperium

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

It has to do with whether news sources are efficient at gathering news as that depends directly on technology.

In the verse as presented, though, it does not seem unlikely that suppression of news is at least a known phenomenon whether or not it is a common one. Megacorporations are clearly powerful enough to do so by force if under the table, and Dukes are powerful enough to do so through law. Imperial CoH might preclude that on most occasions, but that would not prevent it happening on what the authorities at least consider to be extreme circumstances, and not high-status Impies are honorable even in the most laudatory interpretations of the Imperium.

I certainly do believe that some secrets would be suppressed. I've written one adventure where that is a central plot point myself, and there's at least on canonical example (although unfortunately the way that suppression is described is totally unbelievable. I'm talking about the Shalli here).

But you also have to consider the nature of the secret that is being suppressed. Something like statistical analyses of freely available data is not a good candidate for suppression. There's an old saw about two people being able to hold a secret as long as one of them is dead. That's an exaggeration, but the more people know a secret, the less likely it is that it can be kept. For instance, if advance notice of the death of an emperor reached the 34 fleet admirals and four sector admirals stationed Behind the Claw by J6 courier, the news would almost certainly have leaked long before it arrived by J4 X-boat ( Even more so if you assume that the two score dukes got the news by NavyNet too).


Hans

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

I certainly do believe that some secrets would be suppressed. I've written one adventure where that is a central plot point myself, and there's at least on canonical example (although unfortunately the way that suppression is described is totally unbelievable. I'm talking about the Shalli here).

But you also have to consider the nature of the secret that is being suppressed. Something like statistical analyses of freely available data is not a good candidate for suppression. There's an old saw about two people being able to hold a secret as long as one of them is dead. That's an exaggeration, but the more people know a secret, the less likely it is that it can be kept. For instance, if advance notice of the death of an emperor reached the 34 fleet admirals and four sector admirals stationed Behind the Claw by J6 courier, the news would almost certainly have leaked long before it arrived by J4 X-boat ( Even more so if you assume that the two score dukes got the news by NavyNet too).


Hans

The only time I can remember the death of a monarch being suppressed was once by the Late Medieval Ottomans who wished to mop up a campaign of conquest before a succession crises started. Even then no one intended the suppression to be more then temporary.

In the case you described, the government's and indeed the public's knowledge of the incident would be far more important then any advantage gained by it's secrecy. Certainly Iphigenia's succession of Strephon would not be suppressed; if anything it would be announced as loudly as possible to make absolutely sure of bolstering her legitimacy by an official statement from Strephon's will and a confirmation by the Moot. An incident like that if it occurred would be more likely in the Barracks Emperor's when there were no jump routes anyway.

[Malenfant]

You just need to look at your average conspiracy theory to see how people can believe that thousands of people can all be "in on the lie" and somehow not tell anyone about it.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Malenfant

You just need to look at your average conspiracy theory to see how people can believe that thousands of people can all be "in on the lie" and somehow not tell anyone about it.

Like the tobacco industry. If you have people in positions of power with a vested interest in promoting a particular view, that view gets promoted, no matter impact.

As to the specific case of the death of an emperor, I can understand the delay and confusion just by the widespread use of doubles, clones, robots, what-have-you. It would be an interesting plot to grow a clone, outfit and train it, then kill it very publicly. It might take weeks to convince the powers that be the real emperor is alive. You dont want that story in the news while you are investigating it.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Like the tobacco industry. If you have people in positions of power with a vested interest in promoting a particular view, that view gets promoted, no matter impact.

Thing is, while interstellar corporations are impressive in absolute terms, they still only represent a tiny fraction of planetary wealth. They're just not that powerful compared to the high-tech, high-population worlds.

Which IMO is the reason why the Imperium does intervene to curb the activities of megacorporations; it is more important to keep the important member worlds sweet.

As to the specific case of the death of an emperor, I can understand the delay and confusion just by the widespread use of doubles, clones, robots, what-have-you. It would be an interesting plot to grow a clone, outfit and train it, then kill it very publicly. It might take weeks to convince the powers that be the real emperor is alive. You dont want that story in the news while you are investigating it.

Force-grown clones are beyond the ability of Imperial science, so you'd need to start the clone while the original is still a child for that to work.


Hans

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

Thing is, while interstellar corporations are impressive in absolute terms, they still only represent a tiny fraction of planetary wealth. They're just not that powerful compared to the high-tech, high-population worlds.

Which IMO is the reason why the Imperium does intervene to curb the activities of megacorporations; it is more important to keep the important member worlds sweet.

Force-grown clones are beyond the ability of Imperial science, so you'd need to start the clone while the original is still a child for that to work.


Hans

Archduke Norris is cloning a daughter I believe.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Archduke Norris is cloning a daughter I believe.

He made a clone of himself (with the Y chromosone changed to X) when his elder brother died in 1097 and he became his father's heir. And she grows at the normal rate of any human child. Strephon's supposed clones were allegedly laid down by his father when he was born (I say 'supposed' and 'allegedly' because I have the gravest difficulty reconciling that kind of clones with the Imperium's basic principles and have been advocating retconning them to surgically altered doubles, but that's by the way).


Hans

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

He made a clone of himself (with the Y chromosone changed to X) when his elder brother died in 1097 and he became his father's heir. And she grows at the normal rate of any human child. Strephon's supposed clones were allegedly laid down by his father when he was born (I say 'supposed' and 'allegedly' because I have the gravest difficulty reconciling that kind of clones with the Imperium's basic principles and have been advocating retconning them to surgically altered doubles, but that's by the way).


Hans

It's not an important part. Strictly speaking I would assume from Nobles, that the Imperium is primarily interested not in what the succession laws of a given dynasty are but in whether they are clear and understood. Mucking about with that sort of thing in that way would be a problem if the laws were generally standardized to primogeniture or some other similar tradition(especially as who holds which title affects the other Houses), but no such practice applies to the Imperium.

I suspect a clone of oneself would grow to be more like a twin then a copy anyway.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

It's not an important part. Strictly speaking I would assume from Nobles, that the Imperium is primarily interested not in what the succession laws of a given dynasty are but in whether they are clear and understood.

I don't see that as an insurmountable problem. The Imperium seems to go for gender-neutral primogeniture (or tertiogeniture for Vilani), but there are several examples of Emperors' issue that get skipped over. I assume that renouncing a title is a bit more commonly acceptable than in any historical society we know of. But for that to work the elder siblings and their issue have to be very firmly put out of the running for inheritance. The same would seem to apply to Strephon's clone-slaves. OTOH, Seldrian is specifically described as Norris' heir (getting an heir is the whole reason he had a clone made), so it probably boils down to official proclamations. An acknowledged heir is the heir, no matter who he is and how he came about.

I suspect a clone of oneself would grow to be more like a twin then a copy anyway.

Yeah, as I said, surgically altered (volunteer) doubles works much better than clones as the explanation for Strephon's double. You avoid the whole creepy slave aspect of the clones.


Hans

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

I don't see that as an insurmountable problem. The Imperium seems to go for gender-neutral primogeniture (or tertiogeniture for Vilani), but there are several examples of Emperors' issue that get skipped over. I assume that renouncing a title is a bit more commonly acceptable than in any historical society we know of. But for that to work the elder siblings and their issue have to be very firmly put out of the running for inheritance. The same would seem to apply to Strephon's clone-slaves. OTOH, Seldrian is specifically described as Norris' heir (getting an heir is the whole reason he had a clone made), so it probably boils down to official proclamations. An acknowledged heir is the heir, no matter who he is and how he came about.



Yeah, as I said, surgically altered (volunteer) doubles works much better than clones as the explanation for Strephon's double. You avoid the whole creepy slave aspect of the clones.


Hans

Though under law would it be any different then any other child? Wouldn't she be an acknowledged bastard at worst rather then a slave? It would be no different from the geneological perspective then hiring a surrogate to carry an artificially inseminated child.

Admittedly cloning has kind of a squicky air to it. But there is no reason why a clone would be more a slave then any other. I suppose the parent has more control over how the child is born, but genetic manipulation can do that and the Imperium, at least at the level of wealth available to a High Noble has the technological ability.