mechanical representation of character (not player) being unaware of a trait

[Plane]

"unknown both to him and to you" is how Secret Disadvantages (B120) and Secret Advantage (B33) work. As a player you know (the character doesn't) what value is set aside for some trait, but not what.

How would you approach pricing (and RPing) a character who has some abilities they don't know about, but you do, because you wanted to design them that way?

B152 seems partially related, the social disadvantage "Secret" is however just something OTHERS are unaware of, but it appears the character knows about it.

Something like "I know my character has DR 10, but the character doesn't know, so they are still as terrified of weapons as any other human".

This idea makes more sense for passive abilities.

This should be obviously worth less than full price, but not as much as half price like a Secret Advantage is. But what quantity in between?

[Stormcrow]

Sounds like a quirk. "Doesn't realize he has DR 10." It might be a Delusion if the cognitive dissonance is strong enough.

[Anthony]

For passive traits, it's rarely going to be more than a quirk. For active traits, take Unconscious Only and Uncontrollable.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Sounds like a quirk. "Doesn't realize he has DR 10." It might be a Delusion if the cognitive dissonance is strong enough.

Forgot about delusion, that sounds like a good solution I guess.

Pricing might depend not just on the strength (what you're missing out on actively planning for) but also the absurdity.

For example: if you have "Delusion: "I do not have a third extra arm", while in all cases this means you miss out on the benefits of using it, that is going to be super-weird if you state this belief around people who can clearly see your other arm.

OTOH "I am not capable of summoning a third arm" (you have Extra Arm with Switchable) or "I do not have an invisible arm" (you have Extra Arm with No Signature) while still having you miss out on an ability, doesn't create the same level of problems around other people, since your belief would not fly in the face of what is obvious to others.

"I do not have an invisible arm" would mostly make you seem weird to people who could see the invisible. Sure, they know you can't see it, but they would think "can't he FEEL that arm?"

It would also get weird if people start harming your invisible arm and you feel pain from someone smacking thin air with a staff.

Or perhaps if someone drags you around by your invisible arm. Instead of thinking "hm, I must have an invisible arm" you might instead think "wow, they're using some kind of telekinesis on me!"

Originally Posted by Anthony

For passive traits, it's rarely going to be more than a quirk. For active traits, take Unconscious Only and Uncontrollable.

I think maybe still a delusion, because even if only the unconscious force can control your abilities, you would still know they were your abilities and make will rolls to try and stop them.

OTOH if you don't know this is you, you probably would not even attempt to make the will rolls to turn it off.

[kirbwarrior]

Recently I had a player do this with Ally (Also controlled by Player). Instead of buying TK directly, the PC took Delusion: Mundane Background and had an invisible 'force' Ally that knew his friend would not accept him so didn't try too hard to break the belief, instead just moving things in ways that would always be 'convenient'. Super fun build, but not very universal.

There's already a quirk for forgetting what powers you have. This sounds the same with a different explanation. I believe it is in Supers to explain why a super seems to not use a power established in the past, but it can also be used to have a power that the character doesn't know about but comes up as the player wants.

Further, turning a power into a free action or buying CM/ATR (Only this action) and whatever else is needed to make it unclear to anyone the character is doing something can help with active powers. On the flipside, passive powers don't need anything; DR (Force Field, No Sig) can be bought as a form of luck.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

There's already a quirk for forgetting what powers you have.
This sounds the same with a different explanation.
I believe it is in Supers to explain why a super seems to not use a power established in the past, but it can also be used to have a power that the character doesn't know about but comes up as the player wants.

Thanks, S33 "Forgetful"...

It's broader ("some of your powers or equipment")

It's player's discretion WHEN to forget though...

I'm actually sure why this isn't a perk... it seems like it's a cover for bad RP ("why didn't you use this ability you ought to have used?")

I think perhaps "GM can certainly encourage a player who loses track of what’s on the character sheet to take this" is a way of saying "a GM is expected to remind players of what's on their character sheet" but the quirk means the GM doesn't need to?

B43 Common Sense seems like an inversion of this because it obligates the GM to intervene for "impulsive" ("stupid") players who can't play "thoughtful" (intelligent) characters properly.

I think in that case though, it's not that you forgot something on your sheet (you're always going to remember your character's IQ, it's a BASIC attribute) it's just you may have limitations preventing playing IQ.

Of course the funny thing about that is it seems to assume the GM is smarter, less impulsive or less forgetful than the player and is going to realize their mistakes when they don't.

Common Sense at 10 points could be compared to...

Serendipity 1 (Game Time +0% Requires Per Roll -5% Requires IQ roll -10% Active Only -30%) [10]

That only gives one use per WEEK though. Common Sense (Limited Use: 1/day -40%) is only 6 points and can be used 7x as much!

I'm probably overlooking some versatility of Serendipity here though, maybe that's like "Accessibility: Only Something That Could Work Out Differently If The User Had Made Different Choice -80%" ?

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

I think perhaps "GM can certainly encourage a player who loses track of what’s on the character sheet to take this" is a way of saying "a GM is expected to remind players of what's on their character sheet" but the quirk means the GM doesn't need to?

That's definitely a jump. The first one is a GM being (maybe overly) helpful. The second is an advantage. Heck, now I'm thinking there can be a variant of Common Sense or Intuition that is "The GM will point out which thing on your character sheet is most optimal for the situation".

Originally Posted by Plane

It's player's discretion WHEN to forget though...

I agree, and this just sounds like a more active version of that. Again, you might need to build things elsewhere differently for it to make sense that even when you use the power the character doesn't think it is them.

Also, there's always the 0 point approach; You state the character has the trait in question, but because it is unknown it will never be used and thus isn't worth points. It could be a perk if there is something to be gained from it; in one campaign, a player of mine was playing a retired fencer who was widely regarded as the best swordfighter ever in history, but she was so unwilling to ever pick up a sword again that the player didn't actually take points for Rapier. The Reputation and Vow cancelled each other out and a perk made it clear so that if people saw her stance and/or happened to have a sword in hand, they could feel her skill level, which came as either a +1 to a small group or +1 to rare circumstances of Intimidation.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

there's always the 0 point approach; You state the character has the trait in question, but because it is unknown it will never be used and thus isn't worth points

even something WE don't know about it is worth points (secret advantage) but that might assume there's something about it (passive or uncontrollable) which could activate it without conscious input?

There's the idea "some other force which knows about the physical trait could possess me and use it". I think there's an "only while possessed" accessibility out there somewhere but I'm not sure where.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

There's the idea "some other force which knows about the physical trait could possess me and use it". I think there's an "only while possessed" accessibility out there somewhere but I'm not sure where.

"I have a power that I can't use but my enemies will find a way to use against me" definitely sounds like a disadvantage. "Only while possessed" sounds so bad I would likely never take it unless the GM had it convert the power into a disad.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Amnesia (Selective) [-5]
... seems like it'd be best fit for purpose.