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Old 05-05-2020, 10:51 PM   #41
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
I don't agree, though, that every campaign requires some sort of Constitution at the start that spells everything out.
While such would be nice, I agree it's inappropriate to require such from all GM's (not that I think anyone here has advocated it being a requirement, more of a "this is what I do" kind of thing). As I said, the important thing is consistency and not blindsiding the players. If you've spent points to build a character toward being able to do some specific action, or if you've set up the character intending to buy some specific trait down the line, and then the GM says "No, you can't do that," that's a bad thing. However, the player does have some responsibility here - if you've come up with some specific build that lets you do something nifty-keen, it's probably a good idea to tell the GM, rather than trying to ambush him with it when you use it to effortlessly take out the Big Bad in the opening sequence where he was meant to get away laughing maniacally. For example, I've got ideas on how to basically combine Spear and Staff into a single skill (basically letting you get the +2 staff parry while using a spear as a spear), while keeping it RAW, but if I were building a spear-using character, you'd best believe I'd go to the GM with the build and explicitly tell him what it does, to make certain he's fine with it in his campaign. And I'd absolutely do that if I decided to inflict something like this on his campaign.
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Old 05-05-2020, 11:11 PM   #42
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
...However, the player does have some responsibility here - if you've come up with some specific build that lets you do something nifty-keen, it's probably a good idea to tell the GM, rather than trying to ambush him with it when you use it to effortlessly take out the Big Bad in the opening sequence where he was meant to get away laughing maniacally. For example, I've got ideas on how to basically combine Spear and Staff into a single skill (basically letting you get the +2 staff parry while using a spear as a spear), while keeping it RAW, but if I were building a spear-using character, you'd best believe I'd go to the GM with the build and explicitly tell him what it does, to make certain he's fine with it in his campaign. And I'd absolutely do that if I decided to inflict something like this on his campaign.
This has been the source of most of the Player/GM acrimony I've seen in 35+ears of gaming. If everyone at the table would just tell the GM what they want to to do (or hope to do) with their character most reasonable GMs will try and accommodate that. On the flip side The GM MUST tell the players what sort of tone he's thinking of and what sort of game he intends to run.
There's a big caveat here, both parties must be prepared to compromise (in good faith) if there is a big difference between player and GM expectations or "Sorry but I think this game isn't for me" and it's over!
Rule Zero: GMs be prepared to work with players and Players be prepared to work with GMs and other players. Without this sort of agreement/mindset you might as well flip the table now before we put stuff on it.
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Old 05-06-2020, 02:22 AM   #43
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
Out of curiosity: One often hears of the dreaded "Rules Lawyer" who badgers the GM with technicalities and literal readings of rules that favor the PC. But how often do such players actually plague the game table?

Maybe I've just been lucky in not experiencing these (probably the result of gaming with friends I already know to be reasonable sorts). But maybe others here have the misfortune of frequent Rules Lawyer encounters?

Kind of a story of two parts, I've had a regular group made up of mates for years there is no rules lawyering going on there. But not because we're all great people or anything, but more beaus after literally decades of playing together at this point we kind know how we all tick in terms of role-playing and it just doesn't come up.

But other settings I've run and played in, e.g clubs, schools etc yeah I've come across it several times. Or rather I should say I've come across what pings on my radar as rules lawyering several times.

However its tough to say weather I'm more likely to see rules lawyering in people I'm not mates with than allow it to go unseen or are just more accepting of it from mates.

This is more about my general rule of thumb when it comes to roleplaying, if you don't like the person you probably not going to like roleplaying with them
(I personally think a lot of bad roleplaying experiences even if we split them into specific sub types and names, is born of incompatibility between people trying to roleplay together)

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
The corollary to rule zero is this:


"The GM must have the fun of the players as his foremost concern"


Without that rule, rule zero can easily wreck as much harm as good on a game. Players need to be able to trust their Game Masters.
Yep, the way I've always looked at it is as the GM (and I'm pretty much always the GM nowadays) I have more fun if the players are having fun anyway!

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
...
A kind of follow-up on my post: I don't mind rules advocates - these are the folks that grease the wheel of the game. They know the system well enough that they can assist other players and help them with options while the GM can focus on running the game. Advocates are damn useful. .....
Yep I agree with this 100%. I guess it steps away from the "rules lawyer" stereotype by the advocate using their knowledge for the benefit of the table, but the rules lawyer using theirs for personal benefit at the expense of the table.
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Old 05-06-2020, 10:59 AM   #44
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
GURPS is generic and universal. Not everybody wants the same crunchy bits to spice up their fluff . . . that changes with genre, power level, play style, etc. Most of GURPS is there to give specific micro-sets of gamers the spice they need for their games; there are dozens or hundreds of such micro-sets, whence hundreds of supplements and sub-systems. The problem is when the entire oeuvre is taken as "necessary." While we appreciate the business of collectors who buy everything, we don't really aim the game at using more than a few percent of it at a time.
"Not everybody wants the same crunchy bits to spice up their fluff" is what makes me wonder how on earth you could get into "Rules Lawyering" in GURPS other then poorly worded rules, such as the interaction Magery 0 and Partially Limited Magery (when you have to go into the examples to see how the rule is applied you have done something seriously wrong)

GURPS is as much a toolbox as a system so IMHO it would be insanely hard to "Rules Lawyer" something. Heck, if you include Classic there are eight "official" magic "rules" - the three in Classic Magic, Magic Power out of Supers 1st printing, Religion, Voodoo/Spirits, and then all the modifications that came with fourth edition (including the build magic spells from scratch system .
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Old 05-06-2020, 11:32 AM   #45
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
"Not everybody wants the same crunchy bits to spice up their fluff" is what makes me wonder how on earth you could get into "Rules Lawyering" in GURPS other then poorly worded rules, such as the interaction Magery 0 and Partially Limited Magery (when you have to go into the examples to see how the rule is applied you have done something seriously wrong)

GURPS is as much a toolbox as a system so IMHO it would be insanely hard to "Rules Lawyer" something. Heck, if you include Classic there are eight "official" magic "rules" - the three in Classic Magic, Magic Power out of Supers 1st printing, Religion, Voodoo/Spirits, and then all the modifications that came with fourth edition (including the build magic spells from scratch system .
You can "rules lawyer" whatever set of rules applies to the game. It doesn't make a difference how many rules don't apply to the game.

Of course, if you don't know what ruleset you're using at all you can't hope to rules-lawyer sensibly. But that has larger problems.


However, maybe the most probable situation goes like this: GMs are pretty likely to vaguely handwave about exactly which rules their game is using. Even to themselves. Not in huge things like 'which magic system is it anyway' but in somewhat smaller subsystems. Which means that there's a bunch of rules that the "rules lawyer" can argue should apply to a situation. Sometimes the GM might agree. And sometimes the GM might be 'caught out' because they had been disregarding that rule but don't feel they can stand on that position.
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Old 05-06-2020, 12:28 PM   #46
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
However, maybe the most probable situation goes like this: GMs are pretty likely to vaguely handwave about exactly which rules their game is using. Even to themselves. Not in huge things like 'which magic system is it anyway' but in somewhat smaller subsystems. Which means that there's a bunch of rules that the "rules lawyer" can argue should apply to a situation. Sometimes the GM might agree. And sometimes the GM might be 'caught out' because they had been disregarding that rule but don't feel they can stand on that position.
I see. Basically a 'the Devil is in the details' situation.

Of course GM's 'throw out a rule' option goes back to at least the days of AD&D (1979). No GM I knew used the totally broken 1,500g/week/level rule on page 86 of the DMG for the simple reason it sent you down the Monty Haul path faster then you could say "I'll take what's behind Door number 3."
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Old 05-06-2020, 12:37 PM   #47
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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GURPS is as much a toolbox as a system
I've openly stated "GURPS isn't a game but a system for creating games." On many, many occasions – you can find it on record in FAQs, Q&A articles, transcriptions and recordings of interviews and con panels, etc. There's a good reason (beyond not making the acronym sound sillier, I mean) why SJ chose to put "System" rather than "Game" in the title. It very definitely is the case that each GM needs to create a game as part of creating a campaign . . . which is probably one reason why GURPS is sometimes seen as hard to get into. This is why we published the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game. To a lesser extent, GURPS Action, After the End, Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunters also aim to be "games" in this sense (and do in fact refer to themselves that way on occasion).

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post

However, maybe the most probable situation goes like this: GMs are pretty likely to vaguely handwave about exactly which rules their game is using. Even to themselves. Not in huge things like 'which magic system is it anyway' but in somewhat smaller subsystems. Which means that there's a bunch of rules that the "rules lawyer" can argue should apply to a situation. Sometimes the GM might agree. And sometimes the GM might be 'caught out' because they had been disregarding that rule but don't feel they can stand on that position.
Ultimately, gamers have to pick the GMs they're willing to play with.

I believe it's always best when the GM does what I said above and creates a game as part of creating a campaign. The idea of listing the optional rules, dials and switches, permitted traits, etc. for the campaign in advance, before anybody signs up much less spends a character point, is a good one, and in my mind is as important as making decisions about power level, mana level, tech level, etc. But it's a lot of work. Someone used the word "constitution," and I think that's accurate – both in the sense of what it is and in the sense of how complicated it could get.

I'm well known to prefer ad-lib in all things when it comes to adventures and even major story arcs. Despite that, I still prepare "player guides" that spell out what rules I will and won't be using. Of course, some subsystems and judgment calls are so fine-scale or special-case that were I to decide on all of them in advance, the player guide would fill 500 pages and we'd never get around to gaming. What I try to do there is give a few general statements of the "And if something else related to Q comes up, I'll lean toward X" variety, where Q is a broad element like combat, inventions, magic, or psi, and where X is a statement like "favoring the PCs," "favoring the NPCs," "the simplest option," or "whatever we vote on when it comes up."
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Old 05-06-2020, 03:17 PM   #48
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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There will always be players who refuse to understand that the "game" in "roleplaying game" is a historical accident...
Pretty much D&D literally went the other way at this. The roleplaying side came about as a way to expand the Heroes adventures off of the battlefield, which had rather precise mathematics involved. Yes the "talking in funny voices" part was very fluffy and spongy and full of interpretative dance, but the "and I stab the orc with my sword" side was still algorithmically satisfying.

Likewise I tend to find that most Rules Lawyering has far less to do with "But I should be getting my +5 from Charisma when sexy talking up the Mysterious Wizened Old Questgiver!" and far more to do with "Really? You're going to reload your bow, aim, and fire all in one turn with only roll?"

Both actually said at the table at different times... by me... I personally do far more rules lawyering in social encounters than combat, but that's because I like to build social characters and GMs very often like to ignore social skills and advantages (that's a whole different kettle of fish thoguh), but I tend to see rules lawyering in others revolving more around combat and magic as that is what their Characters are geared up for.

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In some cases, this is because they lack some fundamental social skill, making them bad at negotiation and renegotiation with the other people at the table. In others, it's because they got burned by a bad GM one time, and have decided to overreact and assume that all GMs are like that (in extreme cases, they see the GM in much the same way that anarchists see "the Man" or "the System": inherently corrupt and adversarial to them). In yet other cases, it's because they came to RPGs from boardgames or wargames, with the mistaken belief that since boardgames, card games, dice games, RPGs, wargames, etc. are all tabletop games made by the same kinds of companies and sold at the same kinds of shops, they should all play the same way. And in a rare few cases, it's because they don't like playing games at all; their real hobby is mathematical modeling, whether that means creating characters, vehicles, or worlds.
Or, as is my case, it's "If I'm playing by a set of rules, so should the rest of the table" (obvious 'but they have ways of breaking the rules' excepted).

Sure, GM Fiat has it's place, as long as it's bounded (as others have said) by a healthy dose of consistency. If the GM decides one day that Charisma is used one way, but flip-flops the next, we aren't playing by the same rules. If they allow the Knight to get away with 1 second bow fire, then why did the Scout spend so many points on Heroic Archery?




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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I have some rules-lawyer tendencies, but I have no objection to the GM ruling against the book, so long as he/she is consistent, and the ruling isn't a complete blindside. I enjoy explaining things and correcting errors, because I legitimately assume it will improve the experience for whoever was mistaken to know the way things are designed to work, but I fear my tone may sometimes come across as condescending or similar (I typically try to couch things with phrases like "the way I understand it..." and if I'm not the GM will usually try to make it clear I'll acquiesce to whatever the GM ultimately rules, but not being terribly socially adept I suspect I've missed the mark in the past).
Semi-ditto. I consider myself pretty social adept, but I know I've trod a few toes here there on my Quixotic quest to get everyone "one the same page" ruleswise.

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And, yeah, on the sliding scale of narrativist vs simulationist, I think I lean pretty heavily on the simulationist side. I suspect there's a bit of a correlation between rules-lawyering and simulationism.
Inversely, I'm happy with either narrativist, simulationist, or gamist systems.

I'm also fine going systemless as I trust the GM to rule fairly or we're on the same page "for the good of the story" wise.




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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I've openly stated "GURPS isn't a game but a system for creating games." On many, many occasions – you can find it on record in FAQs, Q&A articles, transcriptions and recordings of interviews and con panels, etc.
Do you know where you won't find this? In the Basic books themselves. In fact, the preamble by Steve makes it pretty clear that system means "rules system" not toolbox.

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree. The 'System' in Generic Universal Roleplaying System should mean 'Toolbox'. And theoretically in the never-to-happen 5e we'll get that in the preamble as well as a better laid out discussion of this in the Game Mastering section.

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There's a good reason (beyond not making the acronym sound sillier, I mean) why SJ chose to put "System" rather than "Game" in the title.
Either his thoughts have changed or it's a poorly worded preamble then, because that is literally the exact opposite of how 'System' is described in the Basic books.

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I believe it's always best when the GM does what I said above and creates a game as part of creating a campaign.
And this is laid out very well in How to Be a GURPS GM. It is unfortunate that this isn't bundled with Basic Campaigns.

Which is why I often refer to the idea of 'GURPS being a toolset' as dogma, as the canon doesn't spell this out well, relying instead on further works to set it straight (I mean it's in there if you squint, read between the lines, and digest on awful lot of the rules discusion from different books).

Quote:
I'm well known to prefer ad-lib in all things when it comes to adventures and even major story arcs. Despite that, I still prepare "player guides" that spell out what rules I will and won't be using. Of course, some subsystems and judgment calls are so fine-scale or special-case that were I to decide on all of them in advance, the player guide would fill 500 pages and we'd never get around to gaming.
I do this as well. I try to cover the major stuff (what optional rules we're using, what books are all in, etc), but you can't cover everything.
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Old 05-06-2020, 03:42 PM   #49
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

Yeah, I'm not trying to say that not having a mega rules bible that records every rule you'll use before session one means you've failed as a GM and doomed your campaign.

Just that when not everyone at the table is on the same page about what rules are in effect you'll wind up in situations where those questions need to be resolved. And if you've got the wrong table dynamics that resolution can go badly in a few different ways, including the rules lawyer (innocent or malicious) making the GM miserable.
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Old 05-06-2020, 06:27 PM   #50
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Default Re: Rules Lawyers: The Most Important Rules in all GURPS

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
I completely agree; it can help the game run smoother and quicker if the GM has assistance. Whether I or someone else is GMing, we frequently have the GM asking someone to look up a rule for them. Fortunately, the weekly group I'm in now and my occasional group both do that, and both have reliable people to do it.

I think it's part of a mindset that "we're creating a story together" rather than "I'm trying to win."
I run three games a week for 4-5 players and we all want the same thing: to have fun and create a story. My player base was a bit rocky for a while as I lost folks to that dreaded thing called Life(TM), but I got lucky again and picked up some players and had a few come back.

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Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
Note to Rules Lawyers who think not following the rules exactly isn't fun:

"The most important rule says 'Have fun!' So if you aren't having fun you're breaking the rules!"
I've always thought it's those who have fun that win.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yep i agree with this 100%. I guess it steps away from the "rules lawyer" stereotype by the advocate using their knowledge for the benefit of the table, but the rules lawyer using of theirs for personal benefit at the expense of the table
That's a good way to put it.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I believe it's always best when the GM does what I said above and creates a game as part of creating a campaign. The idea of listing the optional rules, dials and switches, permitted traits, etc. for the campaign in advance, before anybody signs up much less spends a character point, is a good one, and in my mind is as important as making decisions about power level, mana level, tech level, etc. But it's a lot of work. Someone used the word "constitution," and I think that's accurate – both in the sense of what it is and in the sense of how complicated it could get.

I'm well known to prefer ad-lib in all things when it comes to adventures and even major story arcs. Despite that, I still prepare "player guides" that spell out what rules I will and won't be using. Of course, some subsystems and judgment calls are so fine-scale or special-case that were I to decide on all of them in advance, the player guide would fill 500 pages and we'd never get around to gaming. What I try to do there is give a few general statements of the "And if something else related to Q comes up, I'll lean toward X" variety, where Q is a broad element like combat, inventions, magic, or psi, and where X is a statement like "favoring the PCs," "favoring the NPCs," "the simplest option," or "whatever we vote on when it comes up."
And this is exactly what I do. Those who play with me or have played with me know that I create a massive setting bible to cover the PCs and NPCs of the setting so there is no question about what is in play. It takes time - 3-4 weeks, but running as many games as I do it's just best to take the time so everything jives. Otherwise you get weirdness.
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