12-15-2020, 01:26 PM | #31 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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The overall chance of dying from that single .45 ACP bullet to the skull is ~40%. The odds of remaining conscious are something like 18%. Brain and vitals arguably should still be affected by size modifiers on piercing damage, though that might make .45 hollow points to the vitals a little bit too lethal. Maybe if the 'multipliers' added like CFs do on gear, so a pi+ to the brain would do 1 + 3 + 0.5 = x4.5 damage.
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12-15-2020, 01:45 PM | #32 |
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New York City
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
Fred Brackin, I hear you & as I said in my post, I think guns are fine.
The example of the .45 is an odd case for a bunch of reasons, however with a 9mm pistol you average 28 points of injury, giving 3 HT rolls to stay alive & a major wound roll @ HT-10. In both cases, the HT-10 for major wound to the head is a fight ender & with bleeding rules the target will usually bleed to death in only a few minutes. |
12-15-2020, 02:24 PM | #33 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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Code:
Damage Prob Result 2 2.8% No Injury 3 5.6% 4 HP, HT+0 check vs Stun 4 8.3% 8 HP, HT-10 check vs Stun 5 11.1% 12 HP, as above plus HT check to stay conscious each round* 6 13.9% 16 HP, as above 7 16.7% 20 HP, as above plus HT check to survive 8 13.9% 24 HP, as above 9 11.1% 28 HP, as above 10 8.3% 32 HP, as above plus 2nd HT check to survive 11 5.6% 36 HP, as above 12 2.8% 40 HP, as above plus 3rd HT check to survive *I think this is at -1 at -1xHP, -2 at -2xHP, etc, but I'm not certain As for survival, that's a given (ignoring bleeding) between 2 and 6 HP, requires one roll of 10 or less between 7 and 9 HP, two rolls between 10 and 11, and 3 rolls at 12. Probability of survival is thus 0.583 (1*0.583) + 0.21 (0.5*0.417) + 0.035 (0.5*0.5*0.139) + 0.0035 (0.5*0.5*0.5*0.028), or about an 83% probability of survival. So, less than 10% chance of staying awake, but 83% chance to not die outright. Both are probably higher than is realistic, of course, but at least the first isn't terribly off, and the second plummets when bleeding rules are used.
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12-15-2020, 02:36 PM | #34 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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Another factor with bleeding is that a 10hp target with a 8 point injury it's not going it take many failed bleeding rolls to take them into negative HPs and into rolls to stay conscious if you are taking actions, before failed bleeding takes them into rolling to stay alive. Of course at the rate of bleeding checks that still lots of potential action being taken before bleeding gets you there
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-15-2020 at 02:50 PM. |
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12-15-2020, 03:04 PM | #35 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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Assuming a wound that blows through and either drives someone to 0 HP or -1xHP, you're talking about losing 4-5xHP in 30-60 GURPS turns due to bleeding and knock-on effects of bleeding. On the low end (fast death), that's a multiple of HP every six turns, on the high end it's more like a multiple of HP every 15 turns. That second one looks like roll HT every second, lose 1 HP to bleeding if you fail, takes a serious effort in First Aid or Physician to make it stop. The first one is 2 HP per second, or perhaps 1d on a failed HT-3 roll or so for a HT 12 adventurer. Or HT-1 for Joe Average. So the difference between perceived reality and GURPS reality here is 1. Instant incapacitation is fail a KO roll, not dead. 2. Death is rarely "instantaneous" in real life, on a GURPS tactical time scale. 3. With appropriate lack of intervention, losing something like 1 to 1d HP on a failed HT roll due to mild to severe bleeding gets you in the right ballpark of actual time to die for vitals and head wounds that aren't instantly fatal Gunshot wounds can be - and are - deadly. But not uniformly or invariably so, and modern medicine does astounding things, given the chance.
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12-15-2020, 03:19 PM | #36 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
Note that part of the reason you don't have much in terms of 'death in less than a minute' is uncertainty about what you even mean by dead. Unless the brain gets splattered, it simply takes a while to shut down (generally a few minutes for irreversible brain damage), though you can declare quite a bit earlier "unconscious and no chance of recovery".
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12-15-2020, 05:23 PM | #37 |
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
The technical term is moribund. Even JFK wasn't pronounced dead until 22 minutes after arriving at the hospital, when no more heart activity was detected.
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12-15-2020, 11:55 PM | #38 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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I wonder if it is worth some new optional rule for faster bleeding for some injuries/locations. On a metagame point sub systems that have people helplessly watching their character bleed out at a faster rate than they can address with mundane means can be seen as unfun. So I'd make it optional and situational. Taking less time on first aid / surgery rolls might work but that would be negative mods on top of negative mods.
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-16-2020 at 03:01 AM. |
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12-16-2020, 12:20 AM | #39 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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Which brings up another point the immediate results of an attack in terms of their perceived effects vs. actual long-term results included being pronounced dead either at the scene or later on. How often do we see depictions of a bullet to the head in films and other media where those hit just drop to the ground and stop moving, scene moves on. To me that's what failing the HT-10 roll by 5 looks like a lot of the time. It's often not necessary to the story to actually precisely time stamp the exact point of irrevocable brain death. (and even the traditional signs of death in media e.g. final death rattle, relaxation of grip, glassy eyes to camera etc are not actual sure fire signifies of death in RL).
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Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation. *not too high of course Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-16-2020 at 04:29 AM. |
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12-16-2020, 07:59 AM | #40 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Base gun damage on calibre and gun size; armor divisor on kinetic energy?
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TL;DR: So, of those who get an average damage .45 ACP to the noggin and receive no medical attention, ~15% will survive, ~16% will die outright, ~23.8% will die in 5 minutes, ~13.5% will die in 10 minutes, ~7.7% will die in 15 minutes, ~11.1% will die in 20 minutes, and the rest - ~12.9% - will die over the course of hours due to being mortally wounded. Different damage results will shift these around in expected ways (high damage means more die, low damage means fewer die), but this probably isn't terrible to use for the average. Those who get medical attention will fare better, although the clock is certainly ticking (and brain surgery isn't exactly easy). I don't know how close this comes to reality, but I suspect it's rather on the lenient side. *I'm pretty certain I messed up a bit on the math to calculate the proportion that hit their first mortal wound at each step beyond the first, but I really don't feel like going back and recalculating all of that. Just keep in mind those numbers are probably close but not quite right and you should be fine.
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GURPS Overhaul Last edited by Varyon; 12-16-2020 at 08:06 AM. |
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Tags |
guns, rules modification, survivable guns |
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